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Thread: Dusty on Bailey and Cueto

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    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
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    Dusty on Bailey and Cueto

    Good stuff from Dusty and C. Trent:

    * I know everyone loves to criticize Dusty Baker, to pick out any inconsistency in any quote, pick at any decision made and jump to the same old conclusions.

    My thing is, if you sit back and listen to him, most of the time he makes a lot of sense. And I can also see why guys love to play for him. Orlando Cabrera said it's one of the big reasons he chose to play for the Reds, with Dusty you know where you stand and you know what you're going to be doing.

    Today we were talking about Johnny Cueto.

    "I hope he keeps taking steps, I can't judge how far those steps are," Baker said. "There are a lot of guys around the league that got here early, everyone's not (Tim) Lincecum. You look at guys Matt Cain in San Francisco, these guys are still learning. They're still only 23 years old and they've got two years in the big leagues already."

    Cueto has shown those flashes of being a dominant starter, but has also struggled at times.

    "We're helping to get this finished product and we all want this finished product, but sometimes you've got to let the product finish," Baker said. "It's like that story about the little kid that plants a seed and the plants started growing and he pulled on it to help it grow and killed it. Sometimes you've got to let it grow - just water it sometimes."

    I then noted it was the same with Homer Bailey.

    "We're all in a hurry for these guys and that's the hard part of coaching sometimes is not to overcoach sometimes," Baker said. "I was talking to Tony Phillips about that this morning, that's what Bill Walsh would tell me all time."

    Baker said he could see Cueto maturing on the mound, in part because he had fewer of those really bad innings last year than he did the year before.

    "You're seeing these guys mature, him and Homer and as long as you're taking positive steps and then bang, once they get it, they'll keep it for a while," Baker said. "You look at Greg Maddux's first years in the big leagues, Smoltz and Glavine, look at a whole bunch of them. I'd like to compare (Cueto's) years to those guys, Randy Johnson, Curt Schilling. Nolan Ryan. I think people forget. What would we do (today) if we had Steve Carlton and he lost 20 games? I bet nobody remembers he lost 20 games. When I first came up, Nolan Ryan was in long relief, he couldn't make the starting rotation."

    I'm sure someone will pull a number somewhere, but a single exception doesn't change the rule. Young guys play young sometimes, and sometimes you have to let them grow and learn. There was a game late last year where Homer Bailey had pitched well through four or five innings, then got into some trouble with walks and everyone wanted him pulled. Well, Baker let him stay in and get shelled. A couple of starts later, Bailey got in the same situation and got out of it. Homer gave Baker a lot of credit and said it was because he was left out there the time before and he learned from it.

    I know Dusty-bashing is Cincinnati's favorite pastime (just another example of how sometimes Cincinnati tries too hard to follow Chicago's lead) and the man certainly has some different ideas about baseball than some of us, but it doesn't mean he doesn't know what he's doing. It doesn't mean he knows more about baseball than I do and it doesn't mean there aren't positives to what he's doing here. Is the guy perfect? No. But he does have a lot of experience and has won a ton of games. I don't think that's a mistake.

    (Now, rant on to me why I'm wrong.)

    http://cnati.com/blogs/ctrent/2010/0...-reds-3610.php

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  3. #2
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty on Bailey and Cueto

    Will they have to bring in Soto again this year to get Johnny back on track ?

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    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty on Bailey and Cueto

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    Good stuff from Dusty and C. Trent:

    * I know everyone loves to criticize Dusty Baker, to pick out any inconsistency in any quote, pick at any decision made and jump to the same old conclusions.

    My thing is, if you sit back and listen to him, most of the time he makes a lot of sense.

    I know Dusty-bashing is Cincinnati's favorite pastime (just another example of how sometimes Cincinnati tries too hard to follow Chicago's lead) and the man certainly has some different ideas about baseball than some of us, but it doesn't mean he doesn't know what he's doing. It doesn't mean he knows more about baseball than I do and it doesn't mean there aren't positives to what he's doing here. Is the guy perfect? No. But he does have a lot of experience and has won a ton of games. I don't think that's a mistake.

    (Now, rant on to me why I'm wrong.)

    http://cnati.com/blogs/ctrent/2010/0...-reds-3610.php
    Why is that?

    Does results and outcomes have anything to do with any of it?

    I'll bet whatever C. Trent is getting paid to write what he does that the people really cheer and praise when they witness good results and outcomes too.

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    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty on Bailey and Cueto

    Very good stuff. Anybody who actually makes a decision is a target. I've learned that the most critical are often those with little or no decision-making experience, because if they had the experience, they would have more compassion and patience with others making decisions.
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    Tired of talk. Win! Joseph's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty on Bailey and Cueto

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    Very good stuff. Anybody who actually makes a decision is a target. I've learned that the most critical are often those with little or no decision-making experience, because if they had the experience, they would have more compassion and patience with others making decisions.
    Absolutely correct. Dusty is not a genius however he has won a ton of baseball games and I don't think its in spite of his decision making as many of us imply from time to time.

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    Attack Cat! OUReds's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty on Bailey and Cueto

    CTrent's stuff this spring has been excellent. He has convinced me to subscribe to his site when I get some spare cash.

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    Be the ball Roy Tucker's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty on Bailey and Cueto

    Yeah. I mentioned in other places that Dusty does some things well and other things not as much. But that's like most MLB managers (and the human race in general).

    By and large, I think he's pretty decent. The people side of things he does very well. I wouldn't put Dusty in the top 10 of "Things that are wrong with the Reds".

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    Re: Dusty on Bailey and Cueto

    Agree 100% with CTR. Great piece.
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    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty on Bailey and Cueto

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    Very good stuff. Anybody who actually makes a decision is a target. I've learned that the most critical are often those with little or no decision-making experience, because if they had the experience, they would have more compassion and patience with others making decisions.
    "A person in a position of leadership must make decisions. Making decisions is a tough job. Those outside of leadership can make suggestions. Making suggestions is an easy job. Everybody has a suggestion. Not everybody has a decision." John Wooden
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
    Conceit is self given: be careful.

    John Wooden

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    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty on Bailey and Cueto

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN CHAR NC View Post
    "A person in a position of leadership must make decisions. Making decisions is a tough job. Those outside of leadership can make suggestions. Making suggestions is an easy job. Everybody has a suggestion. Not everybody has a decision." John Wooden
    One of my favorite books of all time is They Call Me Coach
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    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty on Bailey and Cueto

    My take on Dusty has always been that he'd be an awesome bench coach, working with the guys as people. Every decision for Dusty seems to be a personal one; he goes above and beyond to make his guys feel good about themselves. Unfortunately, that doesn't always serve the clubs best interest. Sure, sometimes it means a guy gets his confidence built by fighting through a tough 4th inning. But other times it means running Willy Taveras out there day after day or letting that starter throw 10 more pitches after he's gotten tired, lost his mechanics and is getting shelled.

    I have no problem with having Dusty on the coaching staff. I just don't like the down-side risk that comes with his decision making process and I don't like his constant unwillingness to take the blame when his decisions blow up. I'd much rather have Dusty making suggestions and think he'll make a great Whitey Herzog someday.
    Last edited by RedsManRick; 03-06-2010 at 02:37 PM.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty on Bailey and Cueto

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    My take on Dusty has always been that he'd be an awesome bench coach, working with the guys as people. Every decision for Dusty seems to be a personal one; he goes above and beyond to make his guys feel good about themselves. Unfortunately, that doesn't always serve the clubs best interest. Sure, sometimes it means a guy gets his confidence built by fighting through a tough 4th inning. But other times it means running Willy Taveras out there day after day or letting that starter throw 10 more pitches after he's gotten tired, lost his mechanics and is getting shelled.

    I have no problem with having Dusty on the coaching staff. I just don't like the down-side risk that comes with his decision making process and I don't like his constant unwillingness to take the blame when his decisions blow up. I'd much rather have Dusty making suggestions and think he'll make a great Whitey Herzog someday.
    You guys can throw all the rocks that you want but, I have to ask the question.

    Why isnít Dusty Baker, with all his fine attributes and winning record, why isnít he still in San Francisco or Chicago?

    Are they above needing people with such fine qualities and a winning history? They couldnít afford him? Why would they ever let such a great manager slip away? why isnít he still in San Francisco or Chicago?

  14. #13
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty on Bailey and Cueto

    Why isn't Larussa still in Chicago or in Oakland with Billy Beane? Managers today aren't Walter Alston. Owners today have little patience.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
    Conceit is self given: be careful.

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    Re: Dusty on Bailey and Cueto

    Quote Originally Posted by Spring~Fields View Post
    You guys can throw all the rocks that you want but, I have to ask the question.

    Why isnít Dusty Baker, with all his fine attributes and winning record, why isnít he still in San Francisco or Chicago?

    Are they above needing people with such fine qualities and a winning history? They couldnít afford him? Why would they ever let such a great manager slip away? why isnít he still in San Francisco or Chicago?
    He got in a tift with upper managment in SF, but that said his time there was more than any Reds manager ever achieved, including their 2 most famous managers.

  16. #15
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty on Bailey and Cueto

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    He got in a tift with upper managment in SF, but that said his time there was more than any Reds manager ever achieved, including their 2 most famous managers.
    I won't mention Bonds or Sosa, but, you know what happens to a Michigan or Ohio State and their records if caught cheating.

    But, I think that is a pretty good response. Seems like you made a fair one to me.

    Always the, “yeah buts” it seems like in life, I have a “yeah but“, too. Goes like this, if the well respected general manager, Walt Jocketty is so fond of continuity in managers, coaching and other personnel, and if he could modify a Rolen contract to extend his, why hasn’t Walt Jocketty extended Dusty Baker’s, and even at the end of last season, like Mr. Jocketty indicates in the media that he likes to do at the end of the seasons? What’s the hold up, Dusty Baker might get a better offer at the end of this contract and get away.

    What's he getting now, 3 million a year? How about an extension, 4 four years sixteen million?
    Last edited by Spring~Fields; 03-06-2010 at 04:21 PM.


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