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Thread: Dusty on Bailey and Cueto

  1. #16
    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty on Bailey and Cueto

    Quote Originally Posted by Spring~Fields View Post
    I won't mention Bonds or Sosa, but, you know what happens to a Michigan or Ohio State and their records if caught cheating.

    But, I think that is a pretty good response. Seems like you made a fair one to me.

    Always the, “yeah buts” it seems like in life, I have a “yeah but“, too. Goes like this, if the well respected general manager, Walt Jocketty is so fond of continuity in managers, coaching and other personnel, and if he could modify a Rolen contract to extend his, why hasn’t Walt Jocketty extended Dusty Baker’s, and even at the end of last season, like Mr. Jocketty indicates in the media that he likes to do at the end of the seasons? What’s the hold up, Dusty Baker might get a better offer at the end of this contract and get away.

    What's he getting now, 3 million a year? How about an extension, 4 four years sixteen million?
    I know it will cause pandemonium here on RZ, but I won't be shocked when Baker's extended after this season.
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  3. #17
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    Re: Dusty on Bailey and Cueto

    I don't think Walt Alston, Sparky Anderson, or Connie Mack could have done much more than Dusty has done with what Cincinnati has had.
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  4. #18
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty on Bailey and Cueto

    Dusty says a lot of things that simply shouldn't be taken seriously.

    Clearly one can be critical of Dusty while also being in a position where they make many decisions.

    I'd argue a more accurate characterization is that both camps prone to sniping-those that praise Dusty and those that are hypercritical of him-assume a manager has a much greater impact on results than a manager really does.
    "This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  5. #19
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    Re: Dusty on Bailey and Cueto

    I think the pro-Dusty camp on Redszone is both incredibly small (in number) and also extremely likely to cite the lack of impact a manager makes, other than as a people manager.

    It's the anti-Dusty camp that both overvalues the effect of a manager and insists Teh Duh-sty (or whatever they're calling him now) is somehow responsible for the Reds' struggles over the last three years.
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  6. #20
    The rest is drama. marcshoe's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty on Bailey and Cueto

    I'm finding myself being more and more supportive of Dusty simply because I've become so weary of all the useless changes. I understand the criticisms, and I've been as flabbergasted at some of his lineups as anyone, but over the past few years the Reds have hired one inept manager after another, and Dusty at least knows what he wants, seems to care on a deeper level than just wanting to keep his job, and is strong enough to provide a solid foundation of leadership. I think that given a solid team, he can win. Would he be the first manager I'd choose? No, but right now I'm rooting for him to succeed.

  7. #21
    Brett William Moore Will M's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty on Bailey and Cueto

    I actually want Dusty back after this season.

    I think he is a very good 'people person' and does things like making players comfortable & getting good effort out of players. what the Reds and Dusty need is a 'bench nerd' to sit beside him. a guy who knows how many innings each reliever can go today. a guy who knows who has a career .789 average vs a reliever and who has a career .076 average vs a reliever. a guy who knows exactly how many pitches the starter has thrown. a guy who knows every X and every 0 that need to be known.

    i personally like the manager to be the guy who is the people person rather than the guy who is the nerd.
    .

  8. #22
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty on Bailey and Cueto

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Clearly one can be critical of Dusty while also being in a position where they make many decisions.
    Clearly. The comment, general in nature, was "the most critical..." Another way of saying it is "the least fair..." Those who "make many decisions" will usually at least attempt to be fair in their criticism and not always look at a decision maker's decision from the basis of "what I would or would not do." All decision makers can be criticized for their decisions because all decision makers will make poor decisions at times. However, the most ruthless seem to be those who do not find themselves in decision making capacities, or stink at it themselves.
    Last edited by traderumor; 03-06-2010 at 06:01 PM.
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  9. #23
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty on Bailey and Cueto

    Quote Originally Posted by redsmetz View Post
    I know it will cause pandemonium here on RZ, but I won't be shocked when Baker's extended after this season.
    Honestly, I would not be shocked either. Probably with a big raise, even though if some are right that a manager has little or no impact, it would not follow to pay very much for a manager to begin with, especially when they have so little impact on the results and outcomes. Why not find one with professional baseball knowledge and some experience at a bare minimum price? They don't have any impact and they are as only good as their players, so why pay one large amounts of money for something that doesn't exist?

    Side question:
    Another thing, I know we all agree that it is the players that play the game, how's come with Cincinnati media it seems to be the interviews and stories are predominately from or with Dusy Baker comments and very limited stories or input and feedback from the individual players, and the ones that really do impact the games? I would rather hear from or read the various players input and feedback each day than some manager that has no impact. Ever notice how much Baker this or Baker that, as in said this or that vs the players when we are reading about the Reds? Why is that?
    Last edited by Spring~Fields; 03-06-2010 at 07:47 PM.

  10. #24
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: Dusty on Bailey and Cueto

    Quote Originally Posted by Spring~Fields View Post
    Side question:
    Another thing, I know we all agree that it is the players that play the game, how's come with Cincinnati media it seems to be the interviews and stories are predominately from or with Dusy Baker comments and very limited stories or input and feedback from the individual players, and the ones that really do impact the games? I would rather hear from or read the various players input and feedback each day than some manager that has no impact. Ever notice how much Baker this or Baker that, as in said this or that vs the players when we are reading about the Reds? Why is that?
    Personally, I like that. It shows me that Dusty is saying to the media that the players have a job to do and he wants them to focus on it. It also eliminates alot of the "scandal" type of stuff from players saying the wrong thing to the media. Like the comments Dickerson made to the media a week ago. I think Dusty would rather be the go-between and the diplomat in the player-media relationship. Better for all involved IMO.
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  11. #25
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty on Bailey and Cueto

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    Personally, I like that. It shows me that Dusty is saying to the media that the players have a job to do and he wants them to focus on it. It also eliminates alot of the "scandal" type of stuff from players saying the wrong thing to the media. Like the comments Dickerson made to the media a week ago. I think Dusty would rather be the go-between and the diplomat in the player-media relationship. Better for all involved IMO.
    You have a good point.

    We don't want any media types looking for something, anything to make some dirt out of, and stir trouble where there would not have been any. Just because someone said what they thought at the moment and then tomorrow in after thought would not have.

    Still would like to hear more from the players on the game, and their game etc.

  12. #26
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty on Bailey and Cueto

    A significant portion of a manager's job is to interface with the media.... Dusty is a large personality in that regard....
    "This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  13. #27
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    Re: Dusty on Bailey and Cueto

    Cueto encouraged by first start of spring
    Allows two earned runs, but pleased with work he got in
    By Mark Sheldon / MLB.com

    03/06/10 7:20 PM EST

    GOODYEAR, Ariz. -- Unlike past Spring Trainings, Reds pitcher Johnny Cueto didn't have the foundation of extensive winter ball at his native Dominican Republic before coming to camp.

    With 171 1/3 innings pitched last season, the Reds didn't want Cueto to pitch any more.

    "I took it slow and took it easy, chilling at home," Cueto said in clear English after his start vs. the Indians. He took the loss in a 4-2 final.

    No winter ball hasn't seemed to put Cueto too behind in his preparation.

    "Johnny looks great," Reds manager Dusty Baker said before the game. "He looks in great shape. He's throwing the ball great."

    In his two innings vs. Cleveland, Cueto gave up four runs, two earned, and five hits. He walked one and struck out two.

    To start Cueto's day in the first inning, leadoff batter Michael Brantley reached on first baseman Joey Votto's throwing error. The mistake led to two unearned runs.

    In the bottom of the second inning, Cueto walked Austin Kearns with a 3-1 pitch before the next batter, Andy Marte, smoked a first-pitch fastball for a two-run homer to left field.

    "After that, he threw some quality pitches," Baker said. "He's been working on some things, working on his changeup and cutter. He's still trying to perfect those things as well as the stuff he already has. He made some quality pitches. Then he was trying to throw something else and got it over the heart of the plate on that home run."

    Cueto believed he threw around 45 pitches in his outing and was pleased with the work he got in.

    "It went very well today. I was working the pitches," Cueto said during his first comment through an interpreter.

    Cueto has taken a step forward that you won't notice on the mound or in a pitching line. A native of the Dominican Republic, the 24-year-old right-hander is starting to get more comfortable with speaking English when talking to reporters.

    At first, the Reds lined up Goodyear Police Sgt. Jimmy Rodriguez to interpret. After a few minutes, Cueto started answering some questions in English on his own.

    "That's improvement right there," Baker said.

    Sensing that the questions were over, Cueto asked everyone, "All set?"

    Cueto is all set to take the No. 2 spot in the Reds rotation this season, between Aaron Harang and Bronson Arroyo. The club is looking for more improvement as well after Cueto finished 11-11 with a 4.41 ERA in 30 starts. He walked 61 and struck out 132 batters.

    Getting season-long consistency from Cueto would be another step forward. He was considered a contender for the All-Star Game when he went 8-4 with a 2.69 ERA over his first 16 starts. But Cueto went 0-4 with a 10.64 ERA over the next eight starts and then went on the disabled list with right shoulder inflammation.

    The Reds were concerned Cueto was taking on too much. After his rookie season, he pitched winter ball and in the World Baseball Classic. After the rest from the DL stint, he was much sharper and stronger with a 3-1 record and a 3.63 ERA over his final six starts.

    "I hope he keeps taking steps," Baker said. "I can't judge how big the steps are. There are a lot of guys around the league that got here early. Everybody is not Tim Lincecum. Look at guys like Matt Cain in San Francisco. They're still learning, but they're only 23 years old and have two years in the big leagues already. We're helping to get this finished product. We all want this finished product. Sometimes you have to let the product finish."

    http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/...=.jsp&c_id=cin
    Last edited by OnBaseMachine; 03-06-2010 at 09:33 PM.

  14. #28
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty on Bailey and Cueto

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    A significant portion of a manager's job is to interface with the media.... Dusty is a large personality in that regard....
    That's true, I know that is right. I am just missing the boat a bit, I don't know what my problem is, maybe I can find a snow bank to stick my head in for awhile to get the neurons and circuits to line back up right.

  15. #29
    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty on Bailey and Cueto

    Winning teams are for the most part winners because they have the players. That said Managers without question have an impact and it can be both negative and positive. I doubt any manager could take a 78 win team on paper and win 90 games more than one lucky time perhaps. Likewise sans injuries I don't think a manager no matter how poor (relative to his peers) would cause a 78 win team to win 60 games. But I do believe that a Mgr can sway a record a handful of games one way or another and I think Dusty generally costs his teams as many wins as he helps to create at least. He has some really sharp but unorthodox ideas and he has one (or maybe 2) really obvious and faulty perception(s) of the game. Or he is an awful communicator to the fans and media. I do think he is a bit misunderstood but he brings it on himself with his stubborness and defensive style. He also does seem to place blame elsewhere at times as well.

    My problem with him (or anyone) is when he does something that is blatantly obviously wrong. His contact vs. no contact bias (and although not often discussed does exist IMO) is mostly discouraging, sometimes guys who have a tough time making contact (Dunn, Dickerson, even Gomes initially) can still do enough to be productive and some guys who make contact (Taveras, Patterson, Janish, McDonald) aren't always productive enough. Also his clog the bases theory is a really foolish notion because he allows it to go to extremes. I guess when I think about it that is what his issues are he sees some things largely in extremes that clearly aren't just black and white.

    I personally hope he doesn't come back in '11 but I suspect he will because we might have a winning season that I don't think he will have a ton to do with. And it's not that I don't think he has plenty of redeeming qualities but that he clearly has those major flaws IMO. Of course if the GM would recognize the flaws and not allow him toys of self destruction I wouldn't have a world of problems with him sticking around for good.
    Last edited by Mario-Rijo; 03-07-2010 at 01:59 AM.
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    Re: Dusty on Bailey and Cueto

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    My take on Dusty has always been that he'd be an awesome bench coach, working with the guys as people. Every decision for Dusty seems to be a personal one; he goes above and beyond to make his guys feel good about themselves. Unfortunately, that doesn't always serve the clubs best interest. Sure, sometimes it means a guy gets his confidence built by fighting through a tough 4th inning. But other times it means running Willy Taveras out there day after day or letting that starter throw 10 more pitches after he's gotten tired, lost his mechanics and is getting shelled.

    I have no problem with having Dusty on the coaching staff. I just don't like the down-side risk that comes with his decision making process and I don't like his constant unwillingness to take the blame when his decisions blow up. I'd much rather have Dusty making suggestions and think he'll make a great Whitey Herzog someday.
    This is exactly my sentiments as well. I also feel the trying to be like chicagoans knock was a little uncalled for. We are nothing like chicago fans and there are in fact justifiable reasons for bashing on a manager who arranges his order based on the position they play. I think Dusty has many strong managerial qualities and I think he does have a positive impact on some of our players. But he should let someone else mnage the lineup and pitching changes, for it is well known that that has never been his strong suit.
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