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Thread: The only reason you need to know why Chapman will start in the Minors...

  1. #16
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    Re: The only reason you need to know why Chapman will start in the Minors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Griffey012 View Post
    Half of the people who may "tweak" him probably don't have a clue about the science of the arm and the muscles, I am sure they have never studied anything about Kinesiology and how certain pitches pressure and strain certain parts of the arm/body during delivery. Most of these guys are coaches who played the game and that is what got them into the role they are in. A majority of pitching coaches are great about pitching strategy, pitch types, drills, and routines, but most all of them don't really know much about what causes injuries. Their aspects of proper arm motion and deliveries is usually old school, such as throwing sidearm hurts your elbow, those who said guys like Mark Prior had good mechanics, etc.

    When you are talking about a 30 million dollar investment on a lefty that hits 100 with a fluid looking delivery, I don't want any of our so called "experts" tweaking anything to do with his arm. If it is rubber position, pitching strategy, etc than I am fine with that, but if they are tweaking to prevent injury it will backfire.
    The Minor League Coaches won't be making the decisions. They will take their order from higher up on how many innnings/pitches and what pitches are thrown by Chapman. He'll be treated like a racehorse.

    You buy a new Racehorse from South America and no matter how great he was down there, you don't just pay the Kentucky Derby entry fee and make that his first race. You put him in a series of warmups and watch how he reacts in those races first.

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  3. #17
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    Re: The only reason you need to know why Chapman will start in the Minors...

    Quote Originally Posted by lidspinner View Post
    is this the same common sense that told you there was no way that Yonder would not start at 1st base on this team and have votto in LF?

    Kings, your in my fav 3 as far as posters on this site....but I think you are stretching things a bit far with this one....Chapman will start for the Reds if they think his arm belongs there....just as Yonder will not force Votto to LF.
    Haypay brought up an interesting point. He hasn't pitched in more than a year he says in his post. I didn't know that. That's an awful long time to be dormant.

    That post after yours (in BLEEDS) says that someone thinks that he'll come up at the end of May. That sounds about right....end of May, first week of June. I was never saying that he stays in the Minors. I was only saying that he'll start there so they can get a microscopic look at him under conditions that they control. Once he's in the Majors, he's pretty much under Dusty's control, and that's not a disparaging remark against Dusty in that statement, just that all pitchers are under the manager's control in the Majors to be used as they see fit. They are there to win games.
    Last edited by Kingspoint; 03-11-2010 at 07:23 PM.

  4. #18
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    Re: The only reason you need to know why Chapman will start in the Minors...

    NM
    Last edited by BLEEDS; 03-11-2010 at 07:55 PM. Reason: forgot to quote
    I think that in a year or two, one of these guys - Frazier, Dorn, Valaika, Cumberland, Stubbs - will be ready to replace Dunn. They won't hit as many home runs as Dunn, but they should have similar OPS. - 757690, July 22, 2008

    Alonso will be playing 1B for the REDS and batting 4th one year from today. - Kingspoint, July 9, 2009

  5. #19
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    Re: The only reason you need to know why Chapman will start in the Minors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingspoint View Post
    FINANCES is EXACTLY (I can use caps, too.) what I'm talking about. It's the investment that they made in him why he WILL BE starting in the minors. My whole point has been about FINANCES.

    So, I agree with you that FINANCES will determine where he starts, and in order to protect their investment, they are going to start him in the minors "no matter how well he pitches in Spring Training".
    nice backpedal.

    PEACE

    -BLEEDS
    I think that in a year or two, one of these guys - Frazier, Dorn, Valaika, Cumberland, Stubbs - will be ready to replace Dunn. They won't hit as many home runs as Dunn, but they should have similar OPS. - 757690, July 22, 2008

    Alonso will be playing 1B for the REDS and batting 4th one year from today. - Kingspoint, July 9, 2009

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    Re: The only reason you need to know why Chapman will start in the Minors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingspoint View Post
    The Minor League Coaches won't be making the decisions. They will take their order from higher up on how many innnings/pitches and what pitches are thrown by Chapman. He'll be treated like a racehorse.

    You buy a new Racehorse from South America and no matter how great he was down there, you don't just pay the Kentucky Derby entry fee and make that his first race. You put him in a series of warmups and watch how he reacts in those races first.
    I never mentioned anything about pitch counts, innings pitched, or where he begins the season. I thought the topic was about him being under a microscope so the staff could perform "medical tests" and so the staff could "tweak" his mechanics so his arm will last. Either way, I don't trust the major league coaches in this regard anymore than the minor league coaches, they all come from the same coaching pool, what separates the big league coaches from the minor league coaches is results and opportunity. Only a handful of coaches around the leagues probably really understand the physics of the arm/shoulder and how pitching relates to it.

    The REDS are going to have to have him throw in the minors under "controlled conditions"; and, then they'll peform ongoing medical tests to see how his arm reacts.
    While he's in the minors, they are also going to tweek his mechanics so that his arm lasts through the life of the contract, and so he can get to 210-220 innings on a regular basis without fear of harm to the arm.

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    Re: The only reason you need to know why Chapman will start in the Minors...

    Griffey012, I really didn't mean to make it about that. I was just stating my reason as to how they would go about protecting their huge investment to insure they get the most out of him.

    It wasn't a backpedal, BLEEDS.

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    Re: The only reason you need to know why Chapman will start in the Minors...

    I see what your saying.....but you know I am going to give you crap for that post of yours about saying Yonder will come up and "force" Votto to LF........Then our GM comes out this spring and says JV isnt going anywhere....its my internet way of saying told ya so....hahah...hope you know I am joking Kings.

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    Re: The only reason you need to know why Chapman will start in the Minors...

    Quote Originally Posted by lidspinner View Post
    I see what your saying.....but you know I am going to give you crap for that post of yours about saying Yonder will come up and "force" Votto to LF........Then our GM comes out this spring and says JV isnt going anywhere....its my internet way of saying told ya so....hahah...hope you know I am joking Kings.
    No problem whatsoever. Always call me on things. That's the only way I can learn.

    It was my assumption, possibly a false one, that a team does whatever necessary to get it's best bats in the lineup. I still feel that Alonso is THE BEST bat not currently in the Majors in the REDS' organization. I also still believe that Alonso can't play any position but First Base. I already know that Votto can play Left Field AT LEAST as good as Adam Dunn, and I believe given time, quite a bit better.

    Maybe the "psyche" of Votto worries them after what happened last year, and they don't want to take a chance on messing with that now by moving him to Left Field.

  10. #24
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    Re: The only reason you need to know why Chapman will start in the Minors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Griffey012 View Post
    "Tweaking" his mechanics just gives me chills. If he has thrown this way his whole life just leave him be, tweaking the mechanics will probably do more damage than prevent damage. To me his mechanics look pretty fluid and solid, very effortless arm motion.
    Remember when the Marlins had a lights out young pitcher named Dontrelle Willis and they decided to "tweak" the mechanics of his delivery? How did that work out?

    The kid has been throwing this way his entire life. Medical tests were already done on his shoulder and it has been deemed "pristine". If he has thrown as many innings as rumored in Cuba, using the same mechanics that he does now, you would think he would already have some sort of damage to his arm.

    Bottom line...stop micro-managing the kid and just let him throw and see what happens.

  11. #25
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    Re: The only reason you need to know why Chapman will start in the Minors...

    Quote Originally Posted by BruiserUD View Post
    Remember when the Marlins had a lights out young pitcher named Dontrelle Willis and they decided to "tweak" the mechanics of his delivery? How did that work out?

    The kid has been throwing this way his entire life. Medical tests were already done on his shoulder and it has been deemed "pristine". If he has thrown as many innings as rumored in Cuba, using the same mechanics that he does now, you would think he would already have some sort of damage to his arm.

    Bottom line...stop micro-managing the kid and just let him throw and see what happens.
    i have to agree with this, we dont want chapman to end up like willis. Let him go and throw the way he has always been throwing.

  12. #26
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    Re: The only reason you need to know why Chapman will start in the Minors...

    From today:

    And Chapman showed a new wrinkle.

    "He had a nasty sinker, a two-seamer we didn't even know he had," Baker said.



    This 100% supports what I've been trying to say, "that the REDS have no idea about Chapman's history".

    They didn't even know he had a 2-seamer?

    I'm telling you that I'm right that they are going to send him to the minors no matter what in order to monitor his arm, contract or no contract. They are going to have to watch him under several "real conditions" where they can completely control all of the conditions of the game.
    Last edited by Kingspoint; 03-18-2010 at 02:28 AM.

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    Re: The only reason you need to know why Chapman will start in the Minors...

    In addition, it was said today:

    Chapman threw 118 innings last year in Cuba. Clubs do not like to add too many innings too quickly with young pitchers.

    "We haven't put a number on it," Jocketty said. "But we'll watch pitch counts and the stress on his arm. We monitor that with all our pitchers."



    Someone said that he shouldn't be "tinkered with". Obviously, that's not true as Chapman admits himself that he's always pitched with several improper mechanics:

    "I fixed some of the mechanical problems I had," he said through an interpreter. "My control is not a problem at this moment."

    The fixes? "I'm staying taller, finishing my pitches better and not opening up my elbow," he said.


    Well, I think the REDS are going to have something to say about their #1 investment by spending 5-6 weeks in the minors examining him and coming up with a plan for his future and what's the best way to "fix the several mechanical problems he developed before being signed to a contract by the REDS".

    If they started him in the Majors as a starter right away, they'd have to shut him down by mid-August because he will have pitched too many innings. There's no way in the world that's going to happen.

    It's the minor leagues for Chapman in April and May. And, NOT BECAUSE OF HIS CONTRACT, but because of the care they need to take with him arm.

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    Re: The only reason you need to know why Chapman will start in the Minors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingspoint View Post
    From today:

    And Chapman showed a new wrinkle.

    "He had a nasty sinker, a two-seamer we didn't even know he had," Baker said.


    This 100% supports what I've been trying to say, "that the REDS have no idea about Chapman's history".

    They didn't even know he had a 2-seamer?
    Who is "we"? Show me a quote from Bryan Price saying he didn't know Chapman had a sinker. Show me a quote from the catcher saying he didn't call for a sinker to be thrown for that pitch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingspoint View Post
    I'm telling you that I'm right that they are going to send him to the minors no matter what in order to monitor his arm, contract or no contract. They are going to have to watch him under several "real conditions" where they can completely control all of the conditions of the game.
    So what exactly is not "real conditions" in a major league game, where they cannot completely control all of the conditions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingspoint View Post
    FINANCES is EXACTLY (I can use caps, too.) what I'm talking about...
    Quote Originally Posted by Kingspoint View Post
    It's the minor leagues for Chapman in April and May. And, NOT BECAUSE OF HIS CONTRACT,
    Waffle much?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingspoint View Post
    Someone said that he shouldn't be "tinkered with". Obviously, that's not true as Chapman admits himself that he's always pitched with several improper mechanics:

    [I]"I fixed some of the mechanical problems I had," he said through an interpreter. "My control is not a problem at this moment."
    He made one small change, by himself, after seeing himself on film for the first time. This was discussed several times in the media, etc.
    Hardly translates to him admitting that he has "several" mechanical problems. You are strawmanning this to death.

    PEACE

    -BLEEDS
    I think that in a year or two, one of these guys - Frazier, Dorn, Valaika, Cumberland, Stubbs - will be ready to replace Dunn. They won't hit as many home runs as Dunn, but they should have similar OPS. - 757690, July 22, 2008

    Alonso will be playing 1B for the REDS and batting 4th one year from today. - Kingspoint, July 9, 2009

  15. #29
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    Re: The only reason you need to know why Chapman will start in the Minors...

    I'm telling you the Sun will rise tomorrow morning. Not because the earth is rotating but because the sun is now orbiting the earth!

    Kingspoint this is exactly what you are doing. You are taking what is to be the most likely outcome of the Spring. And then supporting that outcome with wild accusations that unless your name is Walk Jockety or Dusty Baker can be neither proven or disproven. Your opinion on why Chapman will probably start the season in the minors has some merit, but you keep presenting it as though it's fact. It's not a fact, it's an opinion.
    "I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road." Stephen Hawking

  16. #30
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    Re: The only reason you need to know why Chapman will start in the Minors...

    Quote Originally Posted by redlegz View Post
    I'm telling you the Sun will rise tomorrow morning. Not because the earth is rotating but because the sun is now orbiting the earth!

    Kingspoint this is exactly what you are doing. You are taking what is to be the most likely outcome of the Spring. And then supporting that outcome with wild accusations that unless your name is Walk Jockety or Dusty Baker can be neither proven or disproven. Your opinion on why Chapman will probably start the season in the minors has some merit, but you keep presenting it as though it's fact. It's not a fact, it's an opinion.
    Seriously.

    I've never seen a guy go out of his way so much to try to support an opinion he made out of thin air.

    PEACE

    -BLEEDS
    I think that in a year or two, one of these guys - Frazier, Dorn, Valaika, Cumberland, Stubbs - will be ready to replace Dunn. They won't hit as many home runs as Dunn, but they should have similar OPS. - 757690, July 22, 2008

    Alonso will be playing 1B for the REDS and batting 4th one year from today. - Kingspoint, July 9, 2009


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