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Thread: should Chapman, Leake, Wood pitch out of the pen in 2010?

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    Brett William Moore Will M's Avatar
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    should Chapman, Leake, Wood pitch out of the pen in 2010?

    whats wrong with having one or more of the young guns pitch out of the pen this year? Pedro did it. Johan did it. Lots of guys on good teams have had to prove themselves in middle relief before getting a rotation spot. on the Reds we have simply put a guy with promise (the few we get) in the #4 or #5 spot in the rotation. but this year we have a solid 1-2-3-4 & Maloney (low ceiling but still a possible solid major leaguer) & Wood/Leake/Chapman. i don't know a lot about Wood but I suspect Chapman & Leake could pitch out of the pen. beats Fisher & Lincoln as the 6th & 7th relievers. plus it lets them get some major league experience in lower pressure situations before taking over rotation spots in 2011.

    the one downside is of course that it starts the arbitration clock. i'm kinda sick of this arguement. if these guys can help the 2010 team then get them on it. i firmly believe we can win this year. no reason to 'wait til next year'

    the only other arguement i can think against this is that it will somehow screw up their arm since they have all been starters in the past. again, lots & lots of major league starters began their careers in the pen.

    thoughts?
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    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    Re: should Chapman, Leake, Wood pitch out of the pen in 2010?

    I am a huge fan of letting young pitchers cut their teeth in a major league bullpen prior to thowing them into the rotation. It's a lot easier to baby their arms in middle relief while letting them learn how to get major league hitters out than to throw them to the wolves and let them pitch 150 innings of 5.50 ERA ball.
    Last edited by Johnny Footstool; 03-15-2010 at 11:27 PM.
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    Re: should Chapman, Leake, Wood pitch out of the pen in 2010?

    Quote Originally Posted by Will M View Post
    whats wrong with having one or more of the young guns pitch out of the pen this year? Pedro did it. Johan did it. Lots of guys on good teams have had to prove themselves in middle relief before getting a rotation spot. on the Reds we have simply put a guy with promise (the few we get) in the #4 or #5 spot in the rotation. but this year we have a solid 1-2-3-4 & Maloney (low ceiling but still a possible solid major leaguer) & Wood/Leake/Chapman. i don't know a lot about Wood but I suspect Chapman & Leake could pitch out of the pen. beats Fisher & Lincoln as the 6th & 7th relievers. plus it lets them get some major league experience in lower pressure situations before taking over rotation spots in 2011.

    the one downside is of course that it starts the arbitration clock. i'm kinda sick of this arguement. if these guys can help the 2010 team then get them on it. i firmly believe we can win this year. no reason to 'wait til next year'

    the only other arguement i can think against this is that it will somehow screw up their arm since they have all been starters in the past. again, lots & lots of major league starters began their careers in the pen.

    thoughts?
    If we were hurting for arms and they we more experienced, then I'd say yes, but if I'm not mistaken neither Leake nor Chapman has a minor league start (much less triple A). I'd want them in a starters role this year - either ML or MLB.

    If they were already minor-league seasoned and held back by othher starters, I'd consider it, but not at this point.

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    Re: should Chapman, Leake, Wood pitch out of the pen in 2010?

    Me too, Johnny. Worked for Earl Weaver, it will work today. (Of course, I also think the Reds' current OF situation screams out for at least one platoon, if not two.) Then again, I'm also still waiting for Gallagher, the novels of James Clavelle, and hair parted in the middle to come back into style, so what do I know?
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: should Chapman, Leake, Wood pitch out of the pen in 2010?

    I'm not sick of the arbitration clock argument. It shouldn't be the only factor, but it should be considered. Do we want one of say, Leake's cheap years spent pitching out of the bullpen...no we don't. Not saying circumstances should not ever allow it, but to completely rule out the arbitration issue is throwing every bit of business sense out the window.

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    Party like it's 1990 Blitz Dorsey's Avatar
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    Re: should Chapman, Leake, Wood pitch out of the pen in 2010?

    Maybe later in the season, but certainly not right away. All of these guys will likely begin the season in the minors as starters. And then, if they are performing well and the Reds need them, they will be called up either as starters or relievers. For example, in August, I could see all of these guys in the Reds' pen. Or two in the pen and one in the rotation. Or two in the rotation and one in the pen. But in April? No way. 0 of 3.

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    Socratic Gadfly TheNext44's Avatar
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    Re: should Chapman, Leake, Wood pitch out of the pen in 2010?

    There's no reason to pitch Leake in the pen. He's a starter with starter poise and smarts already. The only reason why he's going to the minors at all is to gain strength, which he can't get in the pen at any level. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see Leake in the Reds roster opening day, if he shows that he can go deep into a game this spring.

    As for the others, not a bad idea, especially for Chapman. Nolan Ryan was a 100 MPH pitcher that started in the pen and had a pretty long career as a starter.
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

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    Member 11larkin11's Avatar
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    Re: should Chapman, Leake, Wood pitch out of the pen in 2010?

    If we had the 07 pen, then yes, but our pen is the strength of our team, with 0 spots for competition, really. Get them their starts in AAA.
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    Party like it's 1990 Blitz Dorsey's Avatar
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    Re: should Chapman, Leake, Wood pitch out of the pen in 2010?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNext44 View Post
    There's no reason to pitch Leake in the pen. He's a starter with starter poise and smarts already. The only reason why he's going to the minors at all is to gain strength, which he can't get in the pen at any level. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see Leake in the Reds roster opening day, if he shows that he can go deep into a game this spring.

    As for the others, not a bad idea, especially for Chapman. Nolan Ryan was a 100 MPH pitcher that started in the pen and had a pretty long career as a starter.
    Really? You wouldn't be surprised to see Leake make the team out of spring training? I would submit he has less than 10 percent chance of making the Opening Day roster.

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    Brett William Moore Will M's Avatar
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    Re: should Chapman, Leake, Wood pitch out of the pen in 2010?

    Quote Originally Posted by 11larkin11 View Post
    If we had the 07 pen, then yes, but our pen is the strength of our team, with 0 spots for competition, really. Get them their starts in AAA.
    IMO we have a fairly good pen. Cordero, Masset & Rhodes are solid. Burton should pitch better overall in 2010 than in 2009. Herrera had a nice 2009.
    After that we are not at all strong. I would not say we have 0 spots open for competition. Fisher was pretty generic in 2009. Lincoln was hurt and is getting hit hard this spring. Owings is ok as a placholder but did nothing in 2009 that should guarantee him a major league job going forward.
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    Brett William Moore Will M's Avatar
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    Re: should Chapman, Leake, Wood pitch out of the pen in 2010?

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    I'm not sick of the arbitration clock argument. It shouldn't be the only factor, but it should be considered. Do we want one of say, Leake's cheap years spent pitching out of the bullpen...no we don't. Not saying circumstances should not ever allow it, but to completely rule out the arbitration issue is throwing every bit of business sense out the window.
    i am not saying pitch Leake out of the pen for years. just 2010.

    lets look at a hypothetical situation.
    this spring Wood, Leake, Chapman, Francisco & Frazier strongly outperform Maloney, Lincoln, Fisher, Balentien/Nix & Miles. However all the prospects are sent to Louisville. June 1rst they all are promoted because Maloney, Lincoln, Fisher, Balentien/Nix & Miles stink.

    what have we gained? money

    what have we lost? the 2010 season
    .

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    CELEBRATION TIME RBA's Avatar
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    Re: should Chapman, Leake, Wood pitch out of the pen in 2010?

    No.

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    Socratic Gadfly TheNext44's Avatar
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    Re: should Chapman, Leake, Wood pitch out of the pen in 2010?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blitz Dorsey View Post
    Really? You wouldn't be surprised to see Leake make the team out of spring training? I would submit he has less than 10 percent chance of making the Opening Day roster.
    I wouldn't be surprised to see Leake in the Reds roster opening day, if he shows that he can go deep into a game this spring.
    Right now, 10% is about right. But if he makes it to 5 innings an outing, those odds go real high, imo.
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

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    Socratic Gadfly TheNext44's Avatar
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    Re: should Chapman, Leake, Wood pitch out of the pen in 2010?

    Quote Originally Posted by Will M View Post
    IMO we have a fairly good pen. Cordero, Masset & Rhodes are solid. Burton should pitch better overall in 2010 than in 2009. Herrera had a nice 2009.
    After that we are not at all strong. I would not say we have 0 spots open for competition. Fisher was pretty generic in 2009. Lincoln was hurt and is getting hit hard this spring. Owings is ok as a placholder but did nothing in 2009 that should guarantee him a major league job going forward.
    I agree, or actually am less optimistic about the Reds pen. Relievers rarely have two good years in a row. I could see he Reds needing some reinforcements early this year. But the good news is that the Reds have them in the minors for the first time in awhile.
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

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    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: should Chapman, Leake, Wood pitch out of the pen in 2010?

    Chapman, sure. At some point this year put him in the pen to limit his innings. He threw 125 in the 2008/2009 season, so he should probably be limited to something around 140-150 given the long layoff.

    Leake threw 142 in college last season. Wood threw 167 in AA/AAA. They are better suited to handle a full seasons work load of 175 innings this season. No need to take them out of their comfort zone. The Reds have a ton of available, good options for the bullpen in 2010 that they don't need to worry about messing with a starter in the bullpen for April.


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