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Thread: What did Walt Jocketty do differently?

  1. #61
    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
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    Re: What did Walt Jocketty do differently?

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    That part remains to be seen. The Reds could be a really awful offensive team. Combine that with average on the run prevention side of things and you've got a losing team.
    No doubt. Lets not count our chickens here. Stubb cratering, Dickerson getting injured, Hernandez continuing to decline, Nix/Gomes falling apart, Bruce repeating his struggles and Rolen being injured are all potential pitfalls to derail the team. That's before we even consider the pitching staff and it's many question marks.

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    I suspect what's got people slightly more jazzed about the current version (other than the fact that it's spring and everyone gets giddy when it's spring) isn't the current version so much as the future version. People have visions of Cueto, Chapman, Volquez, Bailey and Leake dancing in their heads. That won't be meaningfully in place until at least 2011, if it ever fully materializes. And that still doesn't put runs on the board.
    I tend to agree. What's got people slightly more interested is this team *could* contend or at least be relevant. And IF (always a massive IF) the young kids become solid that lead to possibly even more winning in the future.

    In the recent past the Reds were never going to contend. The only way they'd be in the hunt is if every single thing fell perfectly in place, a couple of people had better than normal years and the other teams fell apart.

    Now, there's a possibility that the team is relevant and it doesn't rest on hopes, dreams and perfection. I still think it's unlikely the Reds are relevant past late July but it isn't going to take every single star in the universe to align for it to possibly happen. The odds are much more in their favor that they *could* do something.

    Having your odds go from 1 in a billion to 1 in a couple hundred thousand gives a hope starved fan-base the preliminary tingles of interest.
    a super volcano of ridonkulous suckitude.

    I simply don't have access to a "cares about RBI" place in my psyche. There is a "mildly curious about OBI%" alcove just before the acid filled lake guarded by robot snipers with lasers which leads to the "cares about RBI" antechamber though. - Nate

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  3. #62
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: What did Walt Jocketty do differently?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spring~Fields View Post
    Are you saying that the fans should not expect a good product?

    Or that Walt should be given more time than you have allotted the other gm's?

    On some if-come-maybe like we heard from Bowden back in his day of the cry, “we are building for 2003”

    While the fans spend their time, energy and money on that?

    Why shouldn't we all just come back with our time, energy, interest and money after Walt and the Reds actually have a good product in place?
    The fans should be realistic. Pretty clear. I think they can expect improvement this year, both through full seasons of guys like Rolen and Cabrera along with maturation of young guys.

    Personally, I have allotted more time to Walt b/c his plan is to take more time. What you bring up is previously where we saw money being dumped into the major league product while hearing cries of "Win now". I expect to win now when I hear and see that. When I see a GM spend little to no money on the ML product early on and then see a good amt of money being spent on the future of the franchise, I tend to have more patience.

    And to answer your last question, I tend to root for the team no matter what. I guess we'll see you in a few years.

  4. #63
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: What did Walt Jocketty do differently?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spring~Fields View Post
    Are you saying that the fans should not expect a good product?

    Or that Walt should be given more time than you have allotted the other gm's?

    On some if-come-maybe like we heard from Bowden back in his day of the cry, “we are building for 2003”

    While the fans spend their time, energy and money on that?

    Why shouldn't we all just come back with our time, energy, interest and money after Walt and the Reds actually have a good product in place?
    The Brewers were on the ball back in the mid 2000's when they said they were doing a full rebuild on a 5 year plan. They did it right and in the 4th year they were competitive -- and have been since. It simply takes that long or longer. And the more you try to play for today in the process, the longer it takes to actually get there.

    As a fan, I'd much rather have a future to look forward to combined with a clear, reasonable expectation about today than to be fed the owner-cries-win mentality year after year and eventually become so cynical that it just stops being fun.

    Fans shouldn't always expect a winner on the field. But a smart GM sets reasonable expectations, stays optimistic and doesn't set fans up for a let-down.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  5. #64
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: What did Walt Jocketty do differently?

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    The fans should be realistic. Pretty clear. I think they can expect improvement this year, both through full seasons of guys like Rolen and Cabrera along with maturation of young guys.

    Personally, I have allotted more time to Walt b/c his plan is to take more time. What you bring up is previously where we saw money being dumped into the major league product while hearing cries of "Win now". I expect to win now when I hear and see that. When I see a GM spend little to no money on the ML product early on and then see a good amt of money being spent on the future of the franchise, I tend to have more patience.

    And to answer your last question, I tend to root for the team no matter what. I guess we'll see you in a few years.
    "A few more years" ?

    For that ownership group to put a winning entertainment product on the field for the paying fans?

    Bob Castellini and that ownership group of Robert H. Castellini,W. Joseph Williams Jr., Thomas L. Williams, Carl H. Lindner, Carl H. Lindner III, Mrs. Louis Nippert, William J. Reik and George L. Strike, that includes Lindner to this date. Those guys have had more time than any GM of the Reds in the decade and signed off on every significant contract.

    Don’t you think that those owners have filled their pockets enough marketing their product, and have had long enough to put a good entertainment product on the field for the paying fans and sponsors.

    How long do the fans have to keep "bailing" them out?

    I have high expectations for this season from Mr. Baker with the additions of Rolen, Gomes, Stubbs, Cabrera and the utility infielders.

    High expectations = win more than they lose, even if it is only one game above .500
    Last edited by Spring~Fields; 03-19-2010 at 05:33 PM.

  6. #65
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: What did Walt Jocketty do differently?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Fans shouldn't always expect a winner on the field. But a smart GM sets reasonable expectations, stays optimistic and doesn't set fans up for a let-down.
    I think that we agree that fans should not be expected to pay for failure.

    So they need more time to produce a quality product, in sports that is always going to be an ongoing process, so of course they receive that time as a natural course of that process.

    I expect them to be better this year, thanks to the contributions that O'Brien, and Krivsky made, which of course has taken time and will continue to take some time to come to some maturity and manifestation.

    Surely if a fan cries out that Jocketty needs more time, Jocketty needs more money, etc. Then they also should be expected to fully grasp that the work of O'Brien and Krivsky to rebuild a barren waste land stripped by owners preparing to sell as they did to reap a large profit, their work, also was and is going to take time, as it has and will continue to.

    It can't be a standard for one, and not for the other. Or it is flawed.

    Of course you have pointed out that each has made contributions, and should not be dismissed.
    Last edited by Spring~Fields; 03-19-2010 at 05:57 PM.

  7. #66
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    Re: What did Walt Jocketty do differently?

    Jocketty and his minor league folks have avoided early-round stinkers in the draft.

    Really, when you get down to it, it's that the Reds have improved their drafting and developing, starting with O'Brien (part of that is benefitting from favorable draft positions of course) Plus, Krivsky got Volquez for a broken part in Hamilton and Jocketty took the right gamble on TOR talent in Chapman and pays more than lip service to improving defense. In short, it's been the organization's shift away from offense to pitching and defense that's brightened this organization's horizon. It was a long, long time coming, when you consider the park they play 81 games a season in. Too long.

  8. #67
    You're soaking in it! MartyFan's Avatar
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    Re: What did Walt Jocketty do differently?

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    What he's done the best is gather and collect the jewels from his predecessors and hide under his desk when Cast was looking to stop the losing.
    DING! DING! DING!

    Winner commentary on this one..I do not think he has done anything that Krivsky couldn't an wouldn't have done.
    "Sometimes, it's not the sexiest moves that put you over the top," Krivsky said. "It's a series of transactions that help you get there."

  9. #68
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: What did Walt Jocketty do differently?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFan View Post
    DING! DING! DING!

    Winner commentary on this one..I do not think he has done anything that Krivsky couldn't an wouldn't have done.
    That's a stretch.

  10. #69
    Socratic Gadfly TheNext44's Avatar
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    Re: What did Walt Jocketty do differently?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFan View Post
    DING! DING! DING!

    Winner commentary on this one..I do not think he has done anything that Krivsky couldn't an wouldn't have done.
    I'll agree with the couldn't, he was a smart guy, but not so sure about the wouldn't, he really had a different overall philosophy than the one Jocketty currently has.
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

  11. #70
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: What did Walt Jocketty do differently?

    He signed WT to a two year deal. I'm still waiting on a single member of the Reds organization to defend that signing.

    Getting Chapman, while a risk, was brilliant, can't deny it. The trade for Rolen... Well i still think it was a bad trade. Especially if Frazier tears up AAA to start this year. And since EE is likely on the DL for TOR, Frazier COULD have started for the Reds out of ST. IMO, a missed opportunity.

    But Walt gets no credit for the rotation, 1B, 2B, RF, CF, and gets only 50% for C.

    So, he hasn't done all that much.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  12. #71
    Charlie Brown All-Star IslandRed's Avatar
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    Re: What did Walt Jocketty do differently?

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    General thoughts:

    1. The notion that it's all going to come together for the Reds in 2010 strikes me as highly aspirational. I'm not saying it won't happen, just that there's a lot of moving pieces involved in it.

    2. Jocketty has had the benefit of following Krivsky. That doesn't mean Krivsky handed him a finished or nearly finished product, just that he has assets to work with. For instance, as much as some have been inclined to grouse about the money spent on Arroyo, Harang and Cordero, the two starters vacuum up an immense number of innings. Cordero has allowed Baker to put together an orderly bullpen and Jocketty to concentrate on fixing other problems.

    3. To his credit, Jocketty has strung together a series of good moves. Getting Rolen undeniably helped the major league product. Chapman, though he'll surely have a learning curve, is a top-end arm. Cabrera was a nice opportunistic buy. Balentien could be a factor. He tried to add some reserve player depth to the roster too (though that remains a bit up in the air). Jocketty's on a bit of run since midway through last season. If he keeps stringing moves together, good things will happen. The challenge he faces is that the club constantly faces a veteran talent bleed, which makes it hard to get ahead (and harder to stay ahead if it ever gets ahead).
    I agree with pretty much all of that. Playoff contention will still require us to end up on the plus side of the breaks ledger, but it's no longer a total pipe dream, and the best-case scenario is way better than any season in my recent memory thanks in large part to Chapman. Even before that, I think the Rolen trade was a clear signal that Jocketty thinks we're close and it was time to move from the random talent collection phase to a focus on putting together a cohesive ballclub, reinforced since by other signings like Cabrera and, just as importantly, who wasn't dumped over the offseason. Maybe it doesn't quite get done this year but they're giving it a pretty good go.
    Not all who wander are lost

  13. #72
    Member cincrazy's Avatar
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    Re: What did Walt Jocketty do differently?

    I think any team can have this argument... just because the bulk of talent was brought in before Jocketty doesn't mean he deserves no credit.

    On the 1990 Reds, I remember reading an article that outlined all of the different GMs that contributed to that team.

    I don't care who gets credit for what, as long as this team is a competitive, competent organization again.

  14. #73
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: What did Walt Jocketty do differently?

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    He signed WT to a two year deal. I'm still waiting on a single member of the Reds organization to defend that signing.
    No one tries to defend it. But is is fair and realistic to judge the performance of any GM based on one signing good or bad?
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

  15. #74
    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
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    Re: What did Walt Jocketty do differently?

    I wish we had some kind of mix between the GM's of the past decade.

    I'd take my chances with the offense of 2004/2005 with the pitching of 2009/2010.

  16. #75
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    Re: What did Walt Jocketty do differently?

    As usual, the narrative insufficiently credits the guy who had--by far--the worst set of circumstances to work with and began the move in the right direction--OB.


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