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Thread: What did Walt Jocketty do differently?

  1. #196
    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
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    Re: What did Walt Jocketty do differently?

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    Other than that, what has he spent money on? Organizational raises, WT, and that's about it. So if you think it's a good idea to not spend money, well, then ok.
    Yep, it's amazing how soon people forget the contracts Jocketty gave to Willy Taveras, Mike Lincoln, and EdE. Jocketty's not as great at utilizing money as some might lead you to believe.

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  3. #197
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    Re: What did Walt Jocketty do differently?

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    Yep, it's amazing how soon people forget the contracts Jocketty gave to Willy Taveras, Mike Lincoln, and EdE. Jocketty's not as great at utilizing money as some might lead you to believe.
    Jocketty's life as a GM didn't begin when he got to Cincinnati.

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    Re: What did Walt Jocketty do differently?

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    What proof do you have that Walt knows how to spend the money he's been given?
    He has been a very successful GM in his career. I'm going to say that he knows what he is doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    He hasn't been given a dime as GM of the Reds. Chapmans money came from the minor league payroll/signing pool. Rolen? We'll see if extending a 35 year old 3B with a history of back issues in the post (hopefully post) PED era is a good idea. Other than that, what has he spent money on? Organizational raises, WT, and that's about it. So if you think it's a good idea to not spend money, well, then ok.
    Again, Walt ran the Cardinals for a very long time and had more than his share of success there. The organization thrived under his management. Just because he hasn't spent much while here doesn't mean he doesn't know how to spend money. It could also mean that he hasn't seen the right opportunities to spend what he has.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    Personally, i don't care what the payroll is if the team produces. Barring that I don't care what a player makes if he earns his contract. Would it have been better to wait a year? maybe. but then that sends a message too, one that says the Reds are not willing to pay for talent. Sometimes you do have to overspend a little. Arroyo isn't overpaid for his performance. Harang wouldn't have been had it not been for injury and a whole lot of bad luck. And i doubt you can quantify how much value there is to Bailey, Cueto and whoever the 5th starter is in having 2 200+ inning horses in the rotation, easing the burden.
    Stop looking at the micro. The Reds inked some significant contracts from 2006-2007 and we really saw no improvement on the field. If you are going to spend like they did in those couple of years, I would think the goal is to improve the team. In all seriousness, knowing what you know now, would you have still spent $100MM on Cordero, Harang and Arroyo or would you rather have that money to spend when the team has a better chance to compete, like over the next 3-5 years?

  5. #199
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    Re: What did Walt Jocketty do differently?

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Jocketty's life as a GM didn't begin when he got to Cincinnati.
    True. Ask him if he'd make that Mulder/Haren trade again. Getting McGuire was about as much a sure thing as the Reds getting Griffey. His best move was getting LaRussa, which meant getting Dave Duncan. Had the Reds ownership ponied up the dough, he'd have never gotten Rolen. Pujols was luck, every team passed on him 12 times.

    His Cardinal teams were ok even wining a division title in '96, but '98 restored the fanbase to St. Louis. How many times have they been below 3 mil in attendance since 1998? 1 time, and just barely. 1998 saw them draw 3.2 mil for a 3rd place team, 1999 the same for a 4th place team. That can do a lot for rebuilding a team.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  6. #200
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    Re: What did Walt Jocketty do differently?

    Stop looking at the micro. The Reds inked some significant contracts from 2006-2007 and we really saw no improvement on the field. If you are going to spend like they did in those couple of years, I would think the goal is to improve the team. In all seriousness, knowing what you know now, would you have still spent $100MM on Cordero, Harang and Arroyo or would you rather have that money to spend when the team has a better chance to compete, like over the next 3-5 years?
    The Cardinals spent a lot in 1998 and 1999 and yep, in 2000 they won a division title. I wonder if having drawn 6 million fans the previous two years helped with that? Sometimes you pick the season, sometimes the season picks you. Walt had the good sense to hire LaRussa and Duncan. TLR lobbied for Big Mac. McGwire/Sosa revitalize baseball, but St. Louis in particular. Walt makes three trades between 1998 and the start of 2000, acquiring Renteria, Tatis and Edmonds. He had the good fortune of having Drew fall to him in the 1998 draft after he sat out and didn't sign with the Phillies the previous year.

    Circumstances worked in his favor. He had to pull it off, but he had a lot working for him (attendance, personnel, the draft). I give him credit for seeing what was in front of him and acting on it. The first truly creative thing I have seen him do is get Chapman.
    Last edited by TRF; 03-22-2010 at 12:57 PM.
    Suck it up cupcake.

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    Re: What did Walt Jocketty do differently?

    Jocketty's best move at St.L. may have been getting Wainwright for Drew.

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    Re: What did Walt Jocketty do differently?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spring~Fields View Post
    I think that should say, now that we have, and have had......a GM. Won't he have had about the same amount of time at the midway point this season as the previous "bumbling GM's" ?
    Time is generally used as an excuse. I am sure if you or I got thrown into the GM spot, it wouldn't take long for people to see that we didn't know how to run a baseball franchise even if we were only given 6 months.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spring~Fields View Post
    So then you do expect major improvements this season and next with this GM, his manager and the Reds organization, as far as winning games on the playing field goes?
    Maybe not "major" when you are speaking only about this year, but I expect to see the quality improve. But I would expect to see this team continually improve over the next few years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spring~Fields View Post
    Do you really think that the inconsistent, or aging and declining veterans that this GM has added will make that much of an improvement over the competition in the Central?
    Not sure what you are getting at here. I think that the improvement that we will see will be caused by both the veterans added and the improvement of the in-house youngsters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spring~Fields View Post
    Or will he have to wait until those draft picks of pitchers and fielders from the previous "bumbling GM's", who had no idea, wait until those prospects mature and produce for him?
    The GMs were more bumbling because of the way they ran the overall organization, not because of one or two draft picks. Many like to try and prove the worth of previous GMs by pointing to one or two positive transactions that they pulled off. There is much more than just plucking someone from another franchise or in the draft.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spring~Fields View Post
    Do you anticipate that when the Harang, Arroyo and Cordero contracts are off the books that he will make a major splash in acquiring better pitching and offense/defense players?
    I anticipate that we will be able to see him do what he does with less restriction. It is difficult to take over a team when a good portion of your balance sheet is clogged up with unattractive positions. I believe that he will improve the team when he has the ability to spend a little more freely.

  9. #203
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    Re: What did Walt Jocketty do differently?

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    True. Ask him if he'd make that Mulder/Haren trade again. Getting McGuire was about as much a sure thing as the Reds getting Griffey. His best move was getting LaRussa, which meant getting Dave Duncan. Had the Reds ownership ponied up the dough, he'd have never gotten Rolen. Pujols was luck, every team passed on him 12 times.

    His Cardinal teams were ok even wining a division title in '96, but '98 restored the fanbase to St. Louis. How many times have they been below 3 mil in attendance since 1998? 1 time, and just barely. 1998 saw them draw 3.2 mil for a 3rd place team, 1999 the same for a 4th place team. That can do a lot for rebuilding a team.
    Show me a GM who hasn't made a bad trade.

  10. #204
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    Re: What did Walt Jocketty do differently?

    The GMs were more bumbling because of the way they ran the overall organization, not because of one or two draft picks. Many like to try and prove the worth of previous GMs by pointing to one or two positive transactions that they pulled off. There is much more than just plucking someone from another franchise or in the draft.
    DanO was a disaster as a GM. Nobody is defending him there, BUT he's had by far the best drafts of the decade of any other Reds GM. Part of that was talent available, but everyone acknowledges his scouting background. A lot of the policies he implemented in the minor leagues were probably pretty silly. Take the first pitch springs to mind. But one interesting thing happened under his watch; arm injuries went down.

    Krivsky got rid of the whole take the first pitch nonsense and started infusing talent from outside the organization. He cut ties with Rijo. He got the Reds active in Latin America, following the foundation set by DanO. And while he along with 7 other GM's whiffed in that round (The Rays and Dodgers did ok), he did more to remake the 25 man roster from what he had, including an almost complete reworking of the rotation. by 2008 he had Arroyo, Volquez and Cueto (signed by DanO) with Harang as the holdover from the previous GM. Bailey also graduates, sort of. This was the problem Krivsky had. He didn't stand up to the owner, and felt the heat and the hype of the teams #1 pitching prospect. The thought of a young Bailey and Cueto pitching in the same rotation was too tempting, and IMO it led to his being fired.

    One thing brought up is WK's forcing out of Almarez. That hasn't had the negative impact suggested. The Reds have been the leader in Latin America since WK swooped in and stole Duran from every other team. Duran may never pan out, but it told the Latin American players and reps that the Reds were serious. Walt followed that signing with Y. Rodriguez and others. But don't doubt that the Reds could have missed out on him had the groundwork not been laid.

    Krivsky wasn't a disaster as a GM, he was new to it. He never had the support of an owner that Jocketty did. He never had the payroll. He never had the attendance, and he inherited a piss-poor team system wide.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  11. #205
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    Re: What did Walt Jocketty do differently?

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Show me a GM who hasn't made a bad trade.
    You keep bringing up extending Arroyo, and signing Cordero.

    Walt has made a few bad trades and bad signings too. The reason it worked out ok for him was simple: averaging 3+million fans per year.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  12. #206
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    Re: What did Walt Jocketty do differently?

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    If he is going well and the Reds are looking to trade him, will whatever he brings back plus his year and a half of service be worth $20MM to this team? I guess that's the question at hand.
    That's only the question if you're deadset on asking silly questions. Teams pay players to play for them. Arroyo earned his money last season and will earn it if he pitches well this season. He has been a useful player. So far, no one bumbled in giving him a contract extension.

    While the Reds may not have been a winning team last year, players like Arroyo at least put a major league product on the field, allowing the team to charge for tickets and have people buy them. That's how the business works.

    And what he brings back should the team trade him is on Jocketty, not Arroyo. Jose Guillen and Wily Mo Pena were far from the two best players the Reds have dealt in the past decade, but, so far, they fetched the best returns.
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    Re: What did Walt Jocketty do differently?

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    You keep bringing up extending Arroyo, and signing Cordero.

    Walt has made a few bad trades and bad signings too. The reason it worked out ok for him was simple: averaging 3+million fans per year.
    Understood, but again it isn't about Cordero being a bad signing or because Arroyo was a bad signing. In a vacuum, they were much better signings than they were in reality due to the position the franchise was in at the time.

    Trading Haren for Mulder did not work out for the Cards at all with the exception that they made the NLCS in his first year. That is obvious. But a GM can do more damage to a team by taking the organization in the wrong direction for multiple years than he can by making one bad trade.

    Now if he has a pattern of bad trades, give me a call.

  14. #208
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    Re: What did Walt Jocketty do differently?

    Quote Originally Posted by HokieRed View Post
    Jocketty's best move at St.L. may have been getting Wainwright for Drew.
    I think that move deserves serious consideration for move of the decade. Jocketty also used the money saved in that deal to sign a number of free agents who were instrumental in the Cardinals' 2004-6 run (including Jeff Suppan and Reggie Sanders).
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    Re: What did Walt Jocketty do differently?

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    That's only the question if you're deadset on asking silly questions. Teams pay players to play for them. Arroyo earned his money last season and will earn it if he pitches well this season. He has been a useful player. So far, no one bumbled in giving him a contract extension.
    I'm not big on investing big money into a losing situation. The franchise would be in no worse shape for the future if he was not extended and, if played correctly, could be in much better shape.

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    While the Reds may not have been a winning team last year, players like Arroyo at least put a major league product on the field, allowing the team to charge for tickets and have people buy them. That's how the business works.
    Do you know of anyone who came to the park last year specifically to see Arroyo pitch? Attendance sucks in Cincy and I have heard from enough people that they need to win in order to get guys to the stadium. Arroyo on the team for the last 4 years hasn't gotten fans to the park, I don't see how trading him would have negatively impacted the attendance numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    And what he brings back should the team trade him is on Jocketty, not Arroyo. Jose Guillen and Wily Mo Pena were far from the two best players the Reds have dealt in the past decade, but, so far, they fetched the best returns.
    Depends on the situation at the time.

  16. #210
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    Re: What did Walt Jocketty do differently?

    I'm not big on investing big money into a losing situation. The franchise would be in no worse shape for the future if he was not extended and, if played correctly, could be in much better shape.
    Opinion, not fact.

    Say he isn't extended then, and leaves via free agency. Say the same thing happens to Harang. That puts more pressure on two pitchers, Bailey and Cueto that just now MIGHT be coming into their own.

    oh, and two transactions I forgot to mention for WK.. getting Hamilton in the Rule V, and dealing him when his value was at an all time high for Volquez. the 2011 rotation of Bailey, Cueto, Volquez and probaly Chapman plus one of Leake, Wood, or whoever looks pretty nice, considering Chapman is Walt's only contribution (assuming Leake isn't the 5th starter next year.) Bailey and Cueto, acquired by DanO, their arms protected by his and WK's minor league policies.

    And that shouldn't be overlooked.
    Suck it up cupcake.


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