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Thread: OCab vs Janish

  1. #1
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    OCab vs Janish

    So sick of Stubbs threads, I thought I'd start something different. I was against the Orlando Cabrera signing. My thinking was it was a wash based on what the Reds had. His offense + defense wouldn't improve the overall production from the position had the job been Janish's for all of 2010, so why spend the money? Instead the Reds could have bolstered the bench a bit more.

    Now Dusty still would likely have batted him 2nd, a huge mistake, but maybe not. Those spots usually go to veteran players and it might have meant Rolen in the two-hole with Janish batting 8th.


    thoughts?
    Suck it up cupcake.

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    Ripsnort wheels's Avatar
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    Re: OCab vs Janish

    Let's hope he's not as range challenged as he seemed yesterday.

    Let's also hope he's not as batspeed challenged as he seemed yesterday.

    Or.

    Let's hope that he fails so spectacularly, so quickly as to snap Dusty out of it.

    Let's also hope that Dusty and Walt have lessons learned from the Willy Patterson fiasco(s).
    "We know we're better than this, but we can't prove it." - Tony Gwynn

  4. #3
    Socratic Gadfly TheNext44's Avatar
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    Re: OCab vs Janish

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    So sick of Stubbs threads, I thought I'd start something different. I was against the Orlando Cabrera signing. My thinking was it was a wash based on what the Reds had. His offense + defense wouldn't improve the overall production from the position had the job been Janish's for all of 2010, so why spend the money? Instead the Reds could have bolstered the bench a bit more.

    Now Dusty still would likely have batted him 2nd, a huge mistake, but maybe not. Those spots usually go to veteran players and it might have meant Rolen in the two-hole with Janish batting 8th.


    thoughts?
    I didn't mind the signing, as long as the Reds are quick to move OCab to the bench and start Janish if he continues to play defense like he has since the beginning of spring training. OCab is signed to a contract that he would still be underpaid if he was a decent backup.

    I considered it a move to bolster the bench, not the starting SS position. His signing means only one of Burke, Cairo, Sutton, Miles et all are on the team at any one time.
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

  5. #4
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: OCab vs Janish

    Honestly, I'm not as worried as I used to be about these things. The Reds FO of late has shown an honest dedication towards winning. They've not hesitated to cut loose players who have substantial money owed them. They've attempted to go with the best players regardless of contract (Mike Lincoln seems to go against the grain a bit here...but regardless of the results, he DOES have a very good arm, a bit of patience isn't too much of a stretch). I'm hoping that if Cabrera does indeed struggle at the plate, that they quickly go with Janish. The only advantage Orlando has over Paul is his bat. And that bat has been less than impressive.

    Personally, I think if you combine offense & defense together, we'd get better results from Janish. I really don't think it's that close either. I see an aging player with diminishing skills (defensively & offensively) in Cabrera. I see those skills leaving him VERY quickly. Bat speed & lateral quickness are NOT something that get better with age. His bat had better perk up pretty soon here, or Paul better get a shot. I know it's just one real game, but ST wasn't any better.

    As for batting order...neither of them have any business anywhere near the #2 hole. 7th or 8th hitters at best, both of them.
    Chapman to the rotation!!!! Do it already!!!!

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    Re: OCab vs Janish

    I liked the signing of Cabrera and I still do. It put Janish one step from where he belongs. He is a utility IF right now and hopefully Cozart will develop this year and move Janish clear off the team. There is no position on the field that can have a full-time player OPS .600; not if a team wants to win; well, teams can get by with pitchers that OPS .600 but that is it. Janish has not shown any ability to do any better than that at any level. He's 27 years old and unlikely to improve much, if any, at the plate. Time to move on...Doug Flynn/Mick Kelleher...not starting for a winning team, not now; maybe if there is another dead ball era, but not now.

    Look at the winning teams in the majors the last 10 years and show me a team that gave a guy 500 AB's at one position with a .600 OPS or lower. 1 game and y'all want to make the team worse...why? Why so over the top on bad Red's players (Janish, Rosales, Dorn, Maloney...etc...).

  7. #6
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: OCab vs Janish

    Well, defensively, it isn't close. not even remotely close. Cabrera is starting to have fall down range at SS.

    Jeter shouldn't bee the SS standard offensively (fantastic) or defensively (not so much). He skews perceptions.

    Janish did have a nice ST. Yeah, I hear that means nothing, but he did.
    Suck it up cupcake.

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    Re: OCab vs Janish

    It's only been one game, but was very unimpressed with OC yesterday, but I"m hoping he catches fire and his leadership shines. I have to say though, if you bat .200 and play poor defense you won't be able to lead on a new team - it could get a little ugly, but I surely hope not. I liked the signing, but felt Janish didn't get a fair shake in ST. He did well with what little playing time he had. This story is TBC....
    And This One Belongs to the REDS!!!

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    GR8NESS WMR's Avatar
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    Re: OCab vs Janish

    The greatest likelihood is that his defense is as poor as it appears and we will continue to be highly underwhelmed... Your defense generally is what it is and at his age it's trending one way and one way only (and it isn't the direction you want to be heading).
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    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: OCab vs Janish

    I think they're probably about dead even in terms of overall value. Janish is a replacement level bat but he's worth 10-15 runs in the field. Meanwhile, I think OCab is worth about 10-15 runs at the dish and is average (replacement level) in the field.

    I can understand bringing him in, but I don't think it really makes a difference who's playing.
    Last edited by RedsManRick; 04-06-2010 at 07:08 PM.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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    Please come again pedro's Avatar
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    Re: OCab vs Janish

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    I think they're probably about dead even in terms of overall value. He's a replacement level bat but he's worth 10-15 runs in the field. Meanwhile, I think OCab is worth about 10-15 runs at the dish and is average (replacement level) in the field.

    I can understand bringing him in, but I don't think it really makes a difference who's playing.
    That's kind of my feeling too RMR. I think he was brought b/c there wasn't anyone else other than Janish in the organization ready to even contribute at that level.
    Get your nunchucks and the keys to your dad's car. I know where we can get a gun

  12. #11
    I'm gettin paper Homer Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: OCab vs Janish

    I was for the acquisition mainly because I think Janish is nowhere near an MLB hitter. Add that to the fact that he HAS to hit 2nd, and I wanted the Reds to go find someone else to get the PA's in the 2 hole. I was under the belief that Cabrera was OK defensively, so I liked the signing. I didn't see the game yesterday, but if it's as bad as it sounds, Cabrera is going to have to hit to provide value. I'm still in the Cabrera camp (maybe mainly because I haven't seen him). I know he is sound defensively, but I do not think Paul Janish is an MLB caliber SS. Just my opinion.

  13. #12
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: OCab vs Janish

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    I think they're probably about dead even in terms of overall value. Janish is a replacement level bat but he's worth 10-15 runs in the field. Meanwhile, I think OCab is worth about 10-15 runs at the dish and is average (replacement level) in the field.

    I can understand bringing him in, but I don't think it really makes a difference who's playing.
    I agree with this in general, but I'd say Janish is below replacement level with the bat and OCab is below replacement level with the glove. I don't see either of those changing any time soon. So the real variable here is OCab's bat. Is it STILL 10-15 runs above replacement player level? I'm not seeing it.
    Chapman to the rotation!!!! Do it already!!!!

  14. #13
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: OCab vs Janish

    If they are equal, shouldn't they both get about equal playing time? If one has any chance of having any upside or ability to improve would it be Cabrera or Janish?

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    Re: OCab vs Janish

    IIRC, Dusty has stated that a critical need is to get better production out of the first two slots in the batting order. Personally, I was happy with Janish at SS and batting 8th. That would still leave a problem, however, at the top of the order. The only solutions apparent involved some combination of Stubbs, Dickerson, Phillips, and perhaps, Heisey. Any of those solutions, however, would sacrifice power to some extent. I believe the Reds wanted to keep Phillips in the heart of the order and get power out of the LF spot.

    I don't think anyone believed that OC would provide better defense than PJ. I do believe they saw enough offense to put him into the two slot. That would leave the heart of the order intact. If they get neither two slot worthy offense or league average defense, I don't think the Reds will show much patience. I see OC getting 100 AB's. By early May, we should have a good idea if the defense is adequate and the top of the order strategy is working.

  16. #15
    Member SirFelixCat's Avatar
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    Re: OCab vs Janish

    Quote Originally Posted by wheels View Post
    Let's hope he's not as range challenged as he seemed yesterday.

    Let's also hope he's not as batspeed challenged as he seemed yesterday.

    Or.

    Let's hope that he fails so spectacularly, so quickly as to snap Dusty out of it.

    Let's also hope that Dusty and Walt have lessons learned from the Willy Patterson fiasco(s).
    :goodposting: and I couldn't have written out my thoughts/feelings any clearer.


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