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Thread: OCab vs Janish

  1. #151
    Socratic Gadfly TheNext44's Avatar
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    Re: OCab vs Janish

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Let's change the name of Redzone to Smallsamplezone
    I can't speak for others, but I'm not basing my decision on a small sample size. In fact, I'm just reiterating what I've been saying since the Cabrera signing. That Janish is a much superior defender and should be starting because defense at SS is what matters most.

    The only question is whether or not Janish has the offense to support his defense. I'm not sure about that, but I think that there's a good chance he can.

    I think he needs to OPS .650 or over, and that is what he did when he had the starting job at the end of last year. I don't give much credence to his spring stats, especially since they were in hitter friendly Az, but I do think what he did as a starter last years shows that he should at least be given a chance.

    At the very least, I would like to see Janish start 2 games a week, and enter most other games in the late innings for defense. As Spring~Field asks, why not give him a shot?
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

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  3. #152
    Mr.Redlegs is my homeboy Eric_the_Red's Avatar
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    Re: OCab vs Janish

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNext44 View Post
    I can't speak for others, but I'm not basing my decision on a small sample size. In fact, I'm just reiterating what I've been saying since the Cabrera signing. That Janish is a much superior defender and should be starting because defense at SS is what matters most.
    Disagree. Defense is important, but overall value is what is important. Like any other position, you must weigh the total package- offense and defense. The player that is better overall option should play.

  4. #153
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: OCab vs Janish

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric_the_Red View Post
    Disagree. Defense is important, but overall value is what is important. Like any other position, you must weigh the total package- offense and defense. The player that is better overall option should play.
    Yep, defense is a key component of being as SS, the biggest one for sure.

    But if it was the only thing that mattered then there would be more Rey Ordonez's in the game than there are.

  5. #154
    Socratic Gadfly TheNext44's Avatar
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    Re: OCab vs Janish

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric_the_Red View Post
    Disagree. Defense is important, but overall value is what is important. Like any other position, you must weigh the total package- offense and defense. The player that is better overall option should play.
    SS and catcher are the two positions where I disagree on that philosophy. The value that a SS and a catcher brings defensively is nearly impossible to measure. It affects the whole team, especially the pitching staff.

    First, a SS and catcher must provide a minimal level of defense to justify starting, no matter how good their offense is. It's not like other positions, where a guy can post a -15 UZR/150, but make it up with a .950 OPS. It doesn't matter how well you hit, you must provide solid defense at SS and catcher, or else you hurt the team as a whole too much to justify any amount of offense.

    Second, I will agree that when a team has two decent, at least league average SS to decide between, then overall value is what is most important, but even then, I would value defense higher than offense. I would go with a the better defender over the better hitter except in extreme cases (Ripken, Tejada, Larkin...)

    But that's just my opinion with absolutely no hard evidence to back it up. Just years of watching teams with bad defensive SS who can hit a little almost never competing.
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

  6. #155
    Socratic Gadfly TheNext44's Avatar
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    Re: OCab vs Janish

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Yep, defense is a key component of being as SS, the biggest one for sure.

    But if it was the only thing that mattered then there would be more Rey Ordonez's in the game than there are.
    And yet, his team was in contention 5 out of 7 years when he was the starting SS, and went to the WS in one of them. He kinda proves my point.
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

  7. #156
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: OCab vs Janish

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNext44 View Post
    And yet, his team was in contention 5 out of 7 years when he was the starting SS, and went to the WS in one of them. He kinda proves my point.
    I suppose if you could also say that if they had a SS who hit they might have actually won something instead of just being in contention.

    It helps if you have tons more money then most if you are going to hide a line like this

    .216/.255/.256/.510 OPS+ = 36

    And that's during an offensive boom

    FWIW the year they went to the WS Ordonez had less SS ab's than Kurt Abbot, Melvin Mora and Mike Bordick.. maybe that's why they went to the WS?
    Last edited by westofyou; 04-15-2010 at 02:27 PM.

  8. #157
    Mr.Redlegs is my homeboy Eric_the_Red's Avatar
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    Re: OCab vs Janish

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNext44 View Post
    And yet, his team was in contention 5 out of 7 years when he was the starting SS, and went to the WS in one of them. He kinda proves my point.
    Isn't Derek Jeter considered an average SS defensively for most of his career? He led his teams to some post-season success.

    And I think if you swap Rey Ordonez for Orlando Cabrera or Paul Janish, the teams win just as much.

  9. #158
    Bread Gloves Razor Shines's Avatar
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    Re: OCab vs Janish

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNext44 View Post
    And yet, his team was in contention 5 out of 7 years when he was the starting SS, and went to the WS in one of them. He kinda proves my point.
    While I agree that Janish should be starting over OC, I don't that argument is a good one.

    Those Mets teams had the offensive fire power to afford a weak hitting Ordonez, the Reds clearly don't. I still think Janish should start because I don't think Cabrera's offense makes up for his lack of range.

  10. #159
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: OCab vs Janish

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    I suppose if you could also say that if they had a SS who hit they might have actually won something instead of just being in contention.

    It helps if you have tons more money then most if you are going to hide a line like this

    .216/.255/.256/.510 OPS+ = 36

    And that's during an offensive boom

    FWIW the year they went to the WS Ordonez had less SS ab's than Kurt Abbot, Melvin Mora and Mike Bordick.. maybe that's why they went to the WS?
    I wonder how well they'd have done if the opposite were true. What if instead they had a Jeff Keppinger type. Decent bat, fall down range.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  11. #160
    Socratic Gadfly TheNext44's Avatar
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    Re: OCab vs Janish

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric_the_Red View Post
    Isn't Derek Jeter considered an average SS defensively for most of his career? He led his teams to some post-season success.

    And I think if you swap Rey Ordonez for Orlando Cabrera or Paul Janish, the teams win just as much.
    Right, which makes my point. You need at least an average SS defensively to compete. And Jeter, even as he has gotten older had been at least an average defensive SS.
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

  12. #161
    Socratic Gadfly TheNext44's Avatar
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    Re: OCab vs Janish

    Quote Originally Posted by Razor Shines View Post
    While I agree that Janish should be starting over OC, I don't that argument is a good one.

    Those Mets teams had the offensive fire power to afford a weak hitting Ordonez, the Reds clearly don't. I still think Janish should start because I don't think Cabrera's offense makes up for his lack of range.
    Yeah, it's not a good one at all. I was just having fun.

    I think most Met's fans will tell you they won, despite of Ray Ordonez, not because of him. His offense was Taveras terrible.
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

  13. #162
    Red's fan mbgrayson's Avatar
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    Re: OCab vs Janish

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNext44 View Post
    Right, which makes my point. You need at least an average SS defensively to compete. And Jeter, even as he has gotten older had been at least an average defensive SS.
    Is Jeter 'average', or just highly over-rated?

    Jeter has won four gold gloves:
    Gold Gloves
    2004 AL (SS)
    2005 AL (SS)
    2006 AL (SS)
    2009 AL (SS)

    Of course, he is also the classic argument that the Gold Glove award is outdated in the age of sabermetrics.

    In the first edition of the Fielding Bible, Jeter was ranked 30th out of 31 shortstops for the three year period of 2003-05. In the second edition, Jeter was ranked fourth lowest among qualifying shortstops. He apparently does well in GG voting because of a low number of 'defensivce misplays' See HERE.

    But, Jeter can hit. Over 16 seasons, he is hitting .317/.388/.459 for an OPS of .847. For a shortstop, that will be plenty to get him in the HOF, not even consdering his world series rings and playing in NY.
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  14. #163
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: OCab vs Janish

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNext44 View Post
    Yeah, it's not a good one at all. I was just having fun.

    I think most Met's fans will tell you they won, despite of Ray Ordonez, not because of him. His offense was Taveras terrible.
    Then the question becomes is Janish "Taveras Terrible" at the dish? My answer is no, but maybe. I think he has more power (so to speak) I think his doubles are less speed aided. And I think he can run into a few fastballs.

    I think he can hit .250, and that means an OBP close to .350. I'd still bat him 8th.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  15. #164
    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
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    Re: OCab vs Janish

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    I'm very often wrong, that's for sure.
    You're right about that....

    [OK, sorry, it just begged to be said]

    BTW, I think Janish is a really quandary for the club. He's quite the enigma, in some ways, and the club hedged it's bet by signing Cabrera. As TRF (and others) noted, it's very possible that Janish will, in fact, never really become much of a hitter, but those doubles last year (and the walks as TRF, I think, noted) are intriguing. And just perhaps, he is learning to hit.

    Given what's occurred the last couple of years, it's not hard to believe that if Cabrera's defense is lackluster and is costing us outs, I think they've shown they can move away from a player like that. It makes for an expensive bench jockey, with the buyout, but if Janish forces there hand, all the better.
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  16. #165
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: OCab vs Janish

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    I think he can hit .250, and that means an OBP close to .350. I'd still bat him 8th.
    Only if he walks at the rate that he did in ML. That isn't likely because

    A. Pitchers have better control

    and

    B. He'll get challenged way more.

    So I'd say if he hits .250 he's be lucky to OB .315, mostly because his BB rate should drop.


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