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Thread: did Walt screw up?

  1. #1
    Brett William Moore Will M's Avatar
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    did Walt screw up?

    Ramon 'singles hitter' Hernandez: $2M
    Orlando 'no range' Cabrera: $3M

    There were certainly not a lot of prime catchers or shortstops available last winter in the free agent market. Walt chose to patch these positions with Hernandez & Cabrera. The money to do so came from selling Mr Enthusiasm to the As for $1.3M and also from restructuring/extending Rolen's deal.

    I have a really bad feeling that the Reds flushed $5M down the toilet. There is already a five page (!) post regarding Cabrera's lack of range. Hernandez had a weak year in 2009 & isn't getting any younger.

    So you ask: well if the free agent market was weak what should Walt have done? Easy answer. where's Maloney? stuck in AAA. where's Heisey? in AAA and sitting behind Stubbs on the depth chart. Alonso? AA and trying to learn a new position. Francisco? well he is here for now but most expect him to be headed for AAA on Sunday. My point: should Walt have decided last winter who to keep & who to trade from the prospects bunching up in AA/AAA & used a few of these prospects to swing a deal for a shortsop and/or catcher instead of getting Hernanndez & Cabrera. I say he messed up. what say you?
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  3. #2
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: did Walt screw up?

    It is one game so far for Cabrera. I think we may want to give him a little bit of time to see how things go.

  4. #3
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    Re: did Walt screw up?

    Sure, he messed up. He should have used Maloney and Alonso and Lehr and gotten Hanley Ramirez, then dealt Hanigan, Wood, Heisey, and Frazier for Joe Mauer.

    How dare he not trade for or sign perennial All-Stars! Any GM could see Ramirez and Mauer are better than what they have now.
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  5. #4
    I'm gettin paper Homer Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: did Walt screw up?

    Without looking at the first post, by the thread title, I'm guessing I'm supposed to say yes.

  6. #5
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: did Walt screw up?

    Yes. he should have inked Honus Wagner and Johnny Bench, and he should have forced Goldstar to make a veggie version of their 3-way like Skyline.

  7. #6
    Brett William Moore Will M's Avatar
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    Re: did Walt screw up?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Sure, he messed up. He should have used Maloney and Alonso and Lehr and gotten Hanley Ramirez, then dealt Hanigan, Wood, Heisey, and Frazier for Joe Mauer.

    How dare he not trade for or sign perennial All-Stars! Any GM could see Ramirez and Mauer are better than what they have now.
    thats not what i suggested. lets say he tried to use Alonso, Francisco, Heisey, Maloney & Cozart in discussion with teams to try to find an solid everyday catcher and/or shortstop. maybe a guy like JJ Hardy. or he trades Heisey+ to the Angels for Izturis and signs him to an extension. or pries Suzuki from the As knowing that he'll be arbitration eligible after 2010.
    .

  8. #7
    Member Tom Servo's Avatar
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    Re: did Walt screw up?

    Walt should have invested that $5 million in the stock market and 401K's and made it into $20M+ to spend on Albert Pujols. The idiot.
    "Since I've been with the Reds in 1989, we've never had a farm system this loaded," Bowden said. "If we were the New York Yankees and had unlimited dollars, we could have traded for Colon, (Jeff) Weaver, Rolen, (Cliff) Floyd, (Kenny) Rogers and Finley and gotten them all -- and still held onto our top five prospects. That's an amazing statement."

  9. #8
    Please come again pedro's Avatar
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    Re: did Walt screw up?

    Say what you want about the options he chose but in a thin FA market his options were to sign who was available or trade prospects to fill those holes. Otherwise the Reds would have gone into the season with Janish and Hanigan starting (neither of which I find very palatable) and absolutely nobody available to back up who could even come close to replacement level.

    As for trading Heisey, Maloney and/or Francisco? No way way in hell those guys would have brought back two players of Cabrera & Hernandez's caliber (dubious as it is at this point in their careers)
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  10. #9
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    Re: did Walt screw up?

    Quote Originally Posted by Will M View Post
    thats not what i suggested. lets say he tried to use Alonso, Francisco, Heisey, Maloney & Cozart in discussion with teams to try to find an solid everyday catcher and/or shortstop. maybe a guy like JJ Hardy. or he trades Heisey+ to the Angels for Izturis and signs him to an extension. or pries Suzuki from the As knowing that he'll be arbitration eligible after 2010.
    My point (and the point of others on this thread) is that it's extremely likely no one was particularly interested in Cincinnati chaff.
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  11. #10
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: did Walt screw up?

    I absolutely liked the Hernandez signing. People forget how much he's an asset to the pitching staff, especially Cueto, Chapman, etc.

    The Cabrera thing is way too premature to make any sweeping conclusions. I'd like to think that the job Paul Janish did in the spring was a precursor of things to come, but he doesn't have much of a track record to suggest it. Still, we do know he would glove it pretty good.
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  12. #11
    Socratic Gadfly TheNext44's Avatar
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    Re: did Walt screw up?

    Quote Originally Posted by Will M View Post
    thats not what i suggested. lets say he tried to use Alonso, Francisco, Heisey, Maloney & Cozart in discussion with teams to try to find an solid everyday catcher and/or shortstop. maybe a guy like JJ Hardy. or he trades Heisey+ to the Angels for Izturis and signs him to an extension. or pries Suzuki from the As knowing that he'll be arbitration eligible after 2010.
    We know he tried to get Hardy, but was out bid by the Twins. Maybe he did try to get Izturis and Suzuki, but the price was too high?

    And $3M (that's how much they are costing this year above replacement players, not including buyouts) really doesn't buy all that much these days. At worst, Hernandez and Cabrera become properly paid backups.
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

  13. #12
    Please come again pedro's Avatar
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    Re: did Walt screw up?

    Let's say he did trade some of those prospects including Alonso. He still would have had to probably pay at least as much in salary as he's giving Cabrera & Hernandez and the prospects would be gone.

    I just don't see much sense in it myself.
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  14. #13
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: did Walt screw up?

    Quote Originally Posted by pedro View Post
    Let's say he did trade some of those prospects including Alonso. He still would have had to probably pay at least as much in salary as he's giving Cabrera & Hernandez and the prospects would be gone.

    I just don't see much sense in it myself.
    Doesn't the sense in such a scenario depend upon who the Reds got back?
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  15. #14
    Brett William Moore Will M's Avatar
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    Re: did Walt screw up?

    Pedro/Scrap Irony:
    1. i am suprised that you think so little of the prospects we have to suggest they wouldn't bring us back players who were little more than replacement value in 2009 ( OC +0.6 WAR and RH +0.4 )
    2. as to the salary issue lets say Walt was able to swing two deals for a C & SS. he gave up talent and paid the players he got the same $5M he is paying OC & RH. Only the players he got were BETTER than OC & RH.

    TheNext44:
    as to the price he paid these guys you may be right in saying that its not much compared to what other (arguably worse) players got. backup catchers cost $2M on the open market. thats great but we didn't need a backup catcher, we already have one. we needed a starter. maybe its too much to ask. too many holes to fill in one offseason to go from a 78 win team to a 90 win team
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  16. #15
    Please come again pedro's Avatar
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    Re: did Walt screw up?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Doesn't the sense in such a scenario depend upon who the Reds got back?
    Yes, but I don't think any of the Reds guys still in the minors are good enough to bring back both a starting catcher and a short stop, unless they were salary dumps by other teams and the Reds, as we know, are pretty salary restricted. Nobody was going to trade cheap young talent at those positions unless the Reds absolutely emptied the cupboard. That's my opinion anyway.

    Teams just don;t trade starting SS and catchers, even marginal ones, for guys who aren't either uber prospects or proven major league ready.
    Last edited by pedro; 04-07-2010 at 07:56 PM.
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