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Thread: Zach Stewart's progress

  1. #16
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    Re: Zach Stewart's progress

    Scott Rolen has no defensive range at 3rd Base.

    Scott Rolen won't OPS more than .780 when the season is all said and done.

    Scott Rolen will fail to start in 30+ games this season.

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  3. #17
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Zach Stewart's progress

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingspoint View Post
    Scott Rolen has no defensive range at 3rd Base.

    Scott Rolen won't OPS more than .780 when the season is all said and done.

    Scott Rolen will fail to start in 30+ games this season.
    Scott Rolen will be a huge upgrade.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  4. #18
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Zach Stewart's progress

    Agree iwth you Doug on both points. Rolen was a solid upgrade, but there's no reason for the Reds to have paid what they did. Consider the financial difference, Rolen for EE & Roenicke seems reasonable to me -- adding Stewart was completely unnecessary. Would the Jays really have just held on to Rolen otherwise?
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  5. #19
    Socratic Gadfly TheNext44's Avatar
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    Re: Zach Stewart's progress

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Agree iwth you Doug on both points. Rolen was a solid upgrade, but there's no reason for the Reds to have paid what they did. Consider the financial difference, Rolen for EE & Roenicke seems reasonable to me -- adding Stewart was completely unnecessary. Would the Jays really have just held on to Rolen otherwise?
    According to reports, that was the deal, but Stewart was added when Jocketty demanded the money to cover the difference in salaries. So, if you think that Rolen for EE and Roenicke was fair, then just figure that the Reds sold Stewart for around $4M.

    As I said before, I think the Reds overpaid, but as a Monday morning QB, I am glad that they did.
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

  6. #20
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: Zach Stewart's progress

    Quote Originally Posted by Benihana View Post
    I actually can't say I disagree with much of this. I do think that people on this board do sometimes get caught up in hoarding prospects. While it would be nice to still have Stewart, you have to give something to get something. We along with the rest of the talking heads can debate all day as to whether or not we could have gotten Rolen for less, but the fact of the matter is that none of us has any idea. Walt saw an opportunity and pounced. The price may have been high, but in the end the product was worth it. Unlike mth's sweet new car analogy, there aren't many Scott Rolen's to go around that are also available. Sometimes you have to pay up for a scarce resource.

    I can also admit when I'm wrong. I did not like the trade at the time, and said so on this very board. I am more than comfortable with it now, and actually would like to see another move like it.
    I liked the trade at the time and I like it even more now. When Rolen is in the lineup he has made a significant difference for the Reds. We are talking about as big of a difference as anyone on the diamond not named Joey Votto makes.

    None of us know how if the price was in fact too high. Many have proclaimed it too high without seeing an inning that Stewart has pitched. I do think that anytime you have the opportunity to improve your major league club without distroying your minor league system you have to make that move. And I am in agreement that the Reds need to make anothe big move, soon, before the season turns south in a hurry.

  7. #21
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    Re: Zach Stewart's progress

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    I do think that anytime you have the opportunity to improve your major league club without distroying your minor league system you have to make that move.
    This.

    Prospects are overvalued in today's game, especially by fans who see visions of multiple All-Star games and MVPs in every Tom, Dick, and Yonder who happens to go 300/350/450 in Double A, and bloggers who have the advantage of both anonymity and hindsight.

    The paradigm shift toward hoarding prospects at virtually all costs is one which can really hamstring a team that needs to improve at the major league level as well. A look at the Reds over the past decade can show that.

    You know what you'll get in Rolen. His play is going to be above average, despite what Kingsport claims. Prospects are a crapshoot that fail. Often. More than often, really

    For every Stewart (that may indeed pay off as a great player), there are 25 or 30 Dustin Moesley, Richie Gardener, or Phil Dumatrait. Perhaps Stewart is that rare breed who finds success in the minor leagues after a "spotty" collegiate record.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
    -- Christy Matthewson
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  8. #22
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    Re: Zach Stewart's progress

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    This.

    Prospects are overvalued in today's game, especially by fans who see visions of multiple All-Star games and MVPs in every Tom, Dick, and Yonder who happens to go 300/350/450 in Double A, and bloggers who have the advantage of both anonymity and hindsight.

    The paradigm shift toward hoarding prospects at virtually all costs is one which can really hamstring a team that needs to improve at the major league level as well. A look at the Reds over the past decade can show that.

    You know what you'll get in Rolen. His play is going to be above average, despite what Kingsport claims. Prospects are a crapshoot that fail. Often. More than often, really

    For every Stewart (that may indeed pay off as a great player), there are 25 or 30 Dustin Moesley, Richie Gardener, or Phil Dumatrait. Perhaps Stewart is that rare breed who finds success in the minor leagues after a "spotty" collegiate record.
    Pretty much where I stand.
    Go BLUE!!!

  9. #23
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Zach Stewart's progress

    Basically it comes down to this with this ongoing discussion of whether the decision was a good one or not...

    One side is basically limited to supposition and very crude estimates of prospect value based upon a little retrospective work that informs the issue.

    The other side has established projection systems and sabermetrics from which to base their argument.

    The results probably don't inform the actual decision tremendously. I guess I'm arguing that absent a new angle to the argument (or info from the FO), this one has matured about as much as it can.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  10. #24
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Zach Stewart's progress

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    It was still a bad trade, though acquiring Rolen was a good idea. I think that is something people seem to misrepresent the side who didn't like the trade with. Scott Rolen was forcing his way to a team in the Midwest and the Blue Jays were making it happen. So that leaves the Cards (already been there, left on bad terms, wasn't going back), Cubs (Aramis Ramirez, they didn't need Rolen), White Sox (they were playing Beckham there, who wasn't going anywhere) and the Reds. So really, we were the only team making bids and gave up at the time our best starting pitching prospect. Bad trade for a good player. Glad to have Rolen as a Red. Still think we gave up too much.
    They improved their ballclub by getting Rolen. By definition, that's a good trade.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  11. #25
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Zach Stewart's progress

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp View Post
    They improved their ballclub by getting Rolen. By definition, that's a good trade.
    Disagree, because they likely could have improved the ballclub with the exact same player for a lesser price.

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    Re: Zach Stewart's progress

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp View Post
    They improved their ballclub by getting Rolen. By definition, that's a good trade.
    thats very simple and silly way to put it.

    Trading any minor leaguer for a major leaguer would be viewed as a good trade then. Trading Alonso for Jerry Hairston would be called a good trade.

  13. #27
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Zach Stewart's progress

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Disagree, because they likely could have improved the ballclub with the exact same player for a lesser price.
    We have absolutely no clue of the veracity of that assumption.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  14. #28
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    Re: Zach Stewart's progress

    Quote Originally Posted by GIDP View Post
    thats very simple and silly way to put it.

    Trading any minor leaguer for a major leaguer would be viewed as a good trade then. Trading Alonso for Jerry Hairston would be called a good trade.
    Silly?

    Is not the goal of a trade either to improve your club now or improve your club later?
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  15. #29
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    Re: Zach Stewart's progress

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp View Post
    Silly?

    Is not the goal of a trade either to improve your club now or improve your club later?
    Yes, and yes to both parts.

  16. #30
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Zach Stewart's progress

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp View Post
    We have absolutely no clue of the veracity of that assumption.
    I think we do. Rolen demanded a trade to a team in the Midwest. The Blue Jays said ok, we will trade you to a team in the Midwest. Three of the four teams in the Midwest had no need at all for Rolen. The team that did gave up their only true starting pitching prospect at the time, along with two other players, to acquire him.


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