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Thread: Zach Stewart's progress

  1. #301
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Zach Stewart's progress

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    I kind of cringe when I hear GMs talk like this.

    Rolen was a great addition because he significantly upgraded the true talent on the roster IMHO. The effect of the other stuff, starts to get murky. I'm sure others can think I'm wiggsers but Jr/Sweeney at DH was a decision made for similar reasons....
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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  3. #302
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Zach Stewart's progress

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    I kind of cringe when I hear GMs talk like this.

    Rolen was a great addition because he significantly upgraded the true talent on the roster IMHO. The effect of the other stuff, starts to get murky. I'm sure others can think I'm wiggsers but Jr/Sweeney at DH was a decision made for similar reasons....
    Sure, but when you have the talent/leadership/"professional" combo, it's better than when you have just one of the factors. Griffey may have the professional stuff, but the talent left the buidling a while ago.

    And I didn't post this here for that reason, more for the Rolen contract extension blurb since it came up previously. I posted the article on the ORG as well for general discussion.

  4. #303
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    Re: Zach Stewart's progress

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    I kind of cringe when I hear GMs talk like this.

    Rolen was a great addition because he significantly upgraded the true talent on the roster IMHO. The effect of the other stuff, starts to get murky. I'm sure others can think I'm wiggsers but Jr/Sweeney at DH was a decision made for similar reasons....
    This.

    The talent upgrade on the team contributes far more to the winning percentage than the corporate culture. The "professionalism" is nice and I'm sure it has an effect but that effect stands in the shadow of talent.

    A team of players who can score more runs than they allow = winning record.
    "Bring on Rod Stupid!"

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    Re: Zach Stewart's progress

    This.

    The talent upgrade on the team contributes far more to the winning percentage than the corporate culture. The "professionalism" is nice and I'm sure it has an effect but that effect stands in the shadow of talent.

    A team of players who can score more runs than they allow = winning record.
    Of course talent is the most important ingredient. That's why Seattle is no good -- they don't hit at multiple positions, and no chemistry adjustments can make them hit. No one here is arguing that it's intangibles alone that has transformed the Reds.

    But to dismiss the effect of a culture change is to betray a limited understanding of human nature. And far too often that effect does get dismissed outright. And when that happens in spite of the fact that players themselves offer testimony to the importance of the leadership of players like Rolen and Cabrera, then it's pure obstinacy (and barely worth arguing over).

    Jocketty's been around lots of teams and clubhouses. Do you think he talks about "culture" just because he thinks it sounds good?
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  6. #305
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Zach Stewart's progress

    Quote Originally Posted by nate View Post
    This.

    The talent upgrade on the team contributes far more to the winning percentage than the corporate culture. The "professionalism" is nice and I'm sure it has an effect but that effect stands in the shadow of talent.

    A team of players who can score more runs than they allow = winning record.
    I think you are missing something...the talent was already there. Jay Bruce's "talent" didn't increase from last year to this year. Maybe he is improving because it is just normal growth from year to year, or maybe he is improving because of a different type of attitude throughout the organization. Maybe his dedication was lacking and, by watching a guy like Rolen prepare as a ballplayer, that helped him improve his own game.

    This team's talent level didn't spike dramatically from last season. The Reds didn't go out and get CC, Teixeira and Burnett. They added a few key pieces and watched some in house guys improve. Getting a better attitude throughout the team (if this is the case) isn't a bad thing.

  7. #306
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    Re: Zach Stewart's progress

    I liked the Rolen trade a very great deal at the time--and continue to do so--because I considered it to be about a real upgrading in terms of skills and the sign of a recognition that self-respect is critical to a team's success. It's difficult for any organization to respect itself when it knows some people are manifestly unable to handle the responsibilities given to them--and that's how I would describe EE at 3b. As I posted over on ORG, I always liked EE and think this organization did his career a great disservice by not converting him to the outfield several years ago. So, in short, I don't think the adding to competence and changing the culture arguments are in contradiction but rather supplement one another. (Something that could be said also of the process-results argument on another thread).

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    Re: Zach Stewart's progress

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    Of course talent is the most important ingredient. That's why Seattle is no good -- they don't hit at multiple positions, and no chemistry adjustments can make them hit. No one here is arguing that it's intangibles alone that has transformed the Reds.

    But to dismiss the effect of a culture change is to betray a limited understanding of human nature. And far too often that effect does get dismissed outright. And when that happens in spite of the fact that players themselves offer testimony to the importance of the leadership of players like Rolen and Cabrera, then it's pure obstinacy (and barely worth arguing over).

    Jocketty's been around lots of teams and clubhouses. Do you think he talks about "culture" just because he thinks it sounds good?
    Seattle is something akin to an 85 win true talent team that is struggling because the Ms had a thin margin of error from a position standpoint, some important guys are under-performing their true offensive talent level, most of the gambles with playing time have went wrong, their manager has squirted some gas on the fire through the way he manages the staff, and importantly, Jr/Sweeney make the roster too inflexible to accommodate changes that could help.

    I think Jocketty talks about culture for the same reason Bavasi talks about culture-because they think it's really important. When it (culture) trumps true talent level in personnel decisions, it's a process that is fraught with peril.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: Zach Stewart's progress

    I'd argue a lasting winning culture is based only on one thing: competence. And I suspect WJ knows that (about Bavasi, I don't know).

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    Re: Zach Stewart's progress

    Quote Originally Posted by HokieRed View Post
    I'd argue a lasting winning culture is based only on one thing: competence. And I suspect WJ knows that (about Bavasi, I don't know).
    See Cardinals, St. Louis

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    Re: Zach Stewart's progress

    I think Jocketty talks about culture for the same reason Bavasi talks about culture-because they think it's really important. When it (culture) trumps true talent level in personnel decisions, it's a process that is fraught with peril.
    You want to give an example of how thinking culture is really important translates to "process"?

    It's a belief, born from experience, not a process.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  12. #311
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Zach Stewart's progress

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    You want to give an example of how thinking culture is really important translates to "process"?

    It's a belief, born from experience, not a process.
    This has already been illustrated.

    Jocketty's quote indicated it was an important part of the process the Reds used when deciding upon Rolen's worth and what they should pay for him. Doesn't it kind of speak directly to the question of why they paid Stewart for him?

    Bavasi is the penultimate example of weighing clubhouse culture heavily in his process....
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  13. #312
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    Re: Zach Stewart's progress

    Methinks Howard Roarke would have been a terrible baseball man

  14. #313
    I'm gettin paper Homer Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Zach Stewart's progress

    Not trying to add fuel to the debate, I just want to know if anyone knows the Reds updated record since the Rolen trade?

  15. #314
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    Re: Zach Stewart's progress

    Quote Originally Posted by Homer Bailey View Post
    Not trying to add fuel to the debate, I just want to know if anyone knows the Reds updated record since the Rolen trade?
    I added this by hand but it looks like they're 56-43 since August 1st of last year.
    "Bring on Rod Stupid!"

  16. #315
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    Re: Zach Stewart's progress

    Rolen returned from the beaning on Aug. 5. so if you take it from that point, it's 56-40,


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