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Thread: Drew Stubbs: If this keeps up, what to do?

  1. #31
    Please come again pedro's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs: If this keeps up, what to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by fearofpopvol1 View Post
    Actually Dusty, those typically lead to quick outs and a lower OBP. Sheesh...good grief.
    Actually, if they're grooving you first pitch fastballs because they know you aren't swinging at them it IS a good idea to be more aggressive, at least until they stop throwing meatballs on the first pitch.

    Stubbs hasn't been helping himself by getting into pitchers counts and then flailing at junk low and away when he has two strikes.
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  3. #32
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs: If this keeps up, what to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNext44 View Post
    In the same article, Baker talked about the importance of clutch hitting and downplayed the importance of OBP. Somewhere RedsManRick's head is exploding.
    I believe the term is re-exploding. I've had to piece it together many times over at this point...

    From what I've seen of Stubbs' at bats, admittedly fewer than Dusty, his problem is not watching fat fastballs and falling behind 0-1. It's swinging and missing on anything other than a fastball located in the low and away quadrant of the zone. Swinging more isn't going to fix that problem...
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  4. #33
    Please come again pedro's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs: If this keeps up, what to do?

    I haven't been watching closely enough to know if watching fat fastballs blow by on the first pitch is Stubb's problem, I merely wanted to point out that it is important for hitters to make adjustments to be successful in the majors and to assume that being aggressive on the first pitch, if it is a good pitch to hit, is always a bad idea, is overly simplistic. If a player can prove that he'll take advantage of that meatball and cream it will lead to more hitters counts if he can lay off the junk when pitchers start to adjust themselves.
    Get your nunchucks and the keys to your dad's car. I know where we can get a gun

  5. #34
    Socratic Gadfly TheNext44's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs: If this keeps up, what to do?

    I think the real issue is that Stubbs just isn't a leadoff hitter. The only thing about him that says leadoff hitter is his speed. He's big and strong, and has a long swing. He should be hitting in the middle of the order.

    Someone needs to show Baker film of Eric Davis. Now Stubbs is no Davis, doesn't have his power, but he is similar is so many other ways.

    Both are GG CF'ers.
    Both are tall and lanky, yet very strong.
    Both have long swings.
    Both are very fast.
    Both started their MLB careers miscast as leadoff hitters.

    I think Stubbs needs to stop thinking about his OBP, or taking pitches, or swinging at the first pitch, and just concentrate on just hitting the ball hard. I think that is what he was doing last year, and now is too caught up in being that leadoff hitter.
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

  6. #35
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs: If this keeps up, what to do?

    Dusty is right... sort of.

    Not about the part of his downplaying OBP. It seems he's trying to get Stubbs to be a hacker, which I don't like. But his point is that Stubbs shouldn't be patient just to be patient. If he sees a good pitch early in the count, he needs to jump on it.

    Make no mistake though, there's a not-so-veiled philosophical mindset that Dusty is venting in these comments and it's a little frustrating.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  7. #36
    Socratic Gadfly TheNext44's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs: If this keeps up, what to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by pedro View Post
    I haven't been watching closely enough to know if watching fat fastballs blow by on the first pitch is Stubb's problem, I merely wanted to point out that it is important for hitters to make adjustments to be successful in the majors and to assume that being aggressive on the first pitch, if it is a good pitch to hit, is always a bad idea, is overly simplistic. If a player can prove that he'll take advantage of that meatball and cream it will lead to more hitters counts if he can lay off the junk when pitchers start to adjust themselves.
    I agree.

    Here's my take how every hitter should approach every at bat.

    Before there are two strikes, look for a pitch you know you can crush, and crush it. If there is any doubt, then lay off of it. This is your best bet at getting a hit.

    With two strikes, protect the plate. The key to being a good hitter is being able to foul off pitcher's pitches and waiting for him to throw you something you can hit. All the best hitters are great at this. Just watch the great hitters bat, they foul off a ton of pitches.

    So before two strikes, be aggressive, but very selective. With two strikes, be defensive and patient.

    Now, of course a big key to this is being able to recognize pitches, to be able to not get fooled by offspeed pitches, but that is more skill than approach.
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

  8. #37
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs: If this keeps up, what to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNext44 View Post
    I think the real issue is that Stubbs just isn't a leadoff hitter. The only thing about him that says leadoff hitter is his speed. He's big and strong, and has a long swing. He should be hitting in the middle of the order.
    Dusty likes speed at the top. See Taveras, Hairston, Patterson, etc. As long as that player has speed he'll act in denial at the other aspects, however lacking, in that player's game. I don't think it's because Dusty wouldn't like his lead off guy to possess those other aspects - he would - but, as long as they possess one of them (speed) he figures it's better then nothing. He'll even force the issue. He had Patterson and Hairston on his Cubs team, trying to turn them into lead off hitters, and it failed and was a source of frustration for him. Yet did he learn anything from it?

    Dusty's mantra - "If at first you don't succeed, try, try, try, try, again."

    Now granted, we haven't had that "typical" lead off guy in this organization for quite some time. And I don't see one anywhere currently in this organization. Dusty has to put someone there obviously.

    I'm sure if Dusty had a Tim Raines he'd cement him in the leadoff spot. At least I hope he would.

    How long before we see Phillips there?
    Last edited by GAC; 04-29-2010 at 04:49 AM.
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  9. #38
    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs: If this keeps up, what to do?

    Stubbs is fast, walks a lot, and hits for zero power.

    If he's not hitting leadoff, where does he hit? 9th?

  10. #39
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs: If this keeps up, what to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by pedro View Post
    Actually, if they're grooving you first pitch fastballs because they know you aren't swinging at them it IS a good idea to be more aggressive, at least until they stop throwing meatballs on the first pitch.

    Stubbs hasn't been helping himself by getting into pitchers counts and then flailing at junk low and away when he has two strikes.
    Agreed.
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  11. #40
    Member hebroncougar's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs: If this keeps up, what to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    I was just getting ready to post this. If the Reds extend this guy, MY head might implode. He's stuck in 1977. Good grief..........

  12. #41
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs: If this keeps up, what to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by hebroncougar View Post
    I was just getting ready to post this. If the Reds extend this guy, MY head might implode. He's stuck in 1977. Good grief..........
    Not sure I disagree with anything Dusty said. Actually I think its spot on.

    “Both of them are struggling,” Baker said. “Stubbs is struggling more. I’ve got to get him more aggressive early in the count. I know everybody talks about on-base percentage and working the court. But working the count isn’t helping.
    In the at bats I have seen Stubbs has been good at working the count but he has taken a lot of good pitches. He isn't swinging at good pitches early in the count, he is swinging at pitchers pitch late in the count. I really can't fault much if anything with what Dusty is saying here.

  13. #42
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    Re: Drew Stubbs: If this keeps up, what to do?

    In Dusty's defense, if this organization supplied him with a real leadoff hitter, I think he'd put him there. Fact is we don't have one and we haven't for some time.

  14. #43
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    Re: Drew Stubbs: If this keeps up, what to do?

    Agree with Baker that a hitter like Stubbs can't get predictable taking get-ahead fastballs. He's got enough power that he can crush those, yet he doesn't have the contact skills to get behind in the count on a regular basis.

    It should be expected that he would struggle. He didn't last year, so it was bound to come. Bruce is just now emerging from an extended period in which he looked bad a lot. The Reds need to be patient with Stubbs (move him down in the order, so as to keep the pressure off him) this year to see what kind of adjustments he's able to make. With Dickerson looking lost (at least to my eyes), there is no reason to short-circuit Stubbs' development path, so far as I can tell.
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  15. #44
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs: If this keeps up, what to do?

    Not sure Dusty said anything wrong there.

  16. #45
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs: If this keeps up, what to do?

    Agree with others that Dusty is basically right. Plate discipline isn't necessarily going deep into each count, even for a leadoff hitter. Plate discipline will lead to an above average OBP, no doubt about that. But that will be a function of the batter not consistently missing pitches that he can handle, either by taking or making no/poor contact, wasting pitches that are possible strikes that he can't handle, and letting pitches out of the strike zone go consistently. In other words, if he watches Joey Votto and Scott Rolen, he will get it.
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