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Thread: My take on Aroldis Chapman tonight

  1. #46

    Re: My take on Aroldis Chapman tonight

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    I just know that it has been brought up on the site in the past and figured I would toss it to you as well. No problem at all with you here. The more the better.

    As for the radar gun, the only reason I dispute what he says is that with the inception of Pitch F/X data we know that pitches for sure are moving much slower at the home plate than they are when they are leaving the pitchers hand. Pitch F/X readings are generally slightly higher than radar gun readings because of where they are initially measured (50 feet for PFX, and as noted 40-45 feet for radar guns). The difference is that with Pitch FX we also get an 'end speed' and pitches lose about 10% of their velocity from the measurement of 50 feet from home plate to crossing home plate. If the movement on the pitches were the cause for the misread, the reading would have come out much lower since it would read the speed in the last 10-15 feet and thus be about 90% of peak velocity, which if you got a 103, would have been about 110 MPH.

    I would believe much more that perhaps you just happened to get an earlier reading, say at the point of release and the others around you picked up the normal 40-45 foot mark. That makes sense to me. The movement misread just doesn't add up given what we know.

    I really hope you don't have any hard feelings because I have disagreed with you. Nothing was meant to be malicious at all, simply just disagreeing that is all. Hope you stick around. Just because we disagreed the first time we interacted doesn't mean its likely we will continue to.
    No hard feelings. I just got the impression that you were trying to get rid of me. It's hard to decipher that sort of thing from text on a computer screen. Anyway, no problem.

    I understand everything you're saying about the radar gun even though I've never gotten into the pitch F/X stuff. (As a coach, I've always been more interested in mechanics, philosophies of pitching to hitters, etc., and use the gun mainly as a recruiting tool.) And I know the gun reads the speed well before it reaches the plate. But I usually listen intently when a scout says something, which is why I believed what he said may have caused my reading.

    But, as I just posted above, my friend said both that scout and Stick Michael told him that they both wouldn't doubt that Chapman hit 103 last night, so maybe no explanation is needed.

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  3. #47
    Administrator Boss-Hog's Avatar
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    Re: My take on Aroldis Chapman tonight

    You are welcome here and we appreciate the insight you've provided. As doug said, you're more than welcome to provide a link in your signature to your site but please refrain from starting posts that serve only to link to an external site. If you have any questions, please send me a PM.

  4. #48

    Re: My take on Aroldis Chapman tonight

    Quote Originally Posted by Boss-Hog View Post
    You are welcome here and we appreciate the insight you've provided. As doug said, you're more than welcome to provide a link in your signature to your site but please refrain from starting posts that serve only to link to an external site. If you have any questions, please send me a PM.
    Will do. I apologize for any mistakes on my part.
    Last edited by RS17TIMES; 04-29-2010 at 10:57 PM.
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  5. #49
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    Re: My take on Aroldis Chapman tonight

    I love watching Doug argue with a guy who pitched above the high school level...
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  6. #50
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    Re: My take on Aroldis Chapman tonight

    Quote Originally Posted by REDblooded View Post
    I love watching Doug argue with a guy who pitched above the high school level...
    I love trying to figure out what that has to do with ones knowledge about pitching....

  7. #51
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    Re: My take on Aroldis Chapman tonight

    Doug - do you chart other pitcher's pitch locations as well (I suspect you do). If so, can you indicate how Chapman's location differs from some of the other pitchers, such as Lecure and Lehr?

  8. #52
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    Re: My take on Aroldis Chapman tonight

    Quote Originally Posted by GoReds View Post
    Doug - do you chart other pitcher's pitch locations as well (I suspect you do). If so, can you indicate how Chapman's location differs from some of the other pitchers, such as Lecure and Lehr?
    I have not charted a game for either of those guys yet. I did chart Travis Wood's last start. Wood 'missed' his spot in innings 1-7 a total of 4 times. Now I will say that is probably the best game I have ever charted in terms of control. But of the ones I have charted, Chapman's start 2 weeks ago was the worst I have charted in terms of control.

  9. #53
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    Re: My take on Aroldis Chapman tonight

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    I have not charted a game for either of those guys yet. I did chart Travis Wood's last start. Wood 'missed' his spot in innings 1-7 a total of 4 times. Now I will say that is probably the best game I have ever charted in terms of control. But of the ones I have charted, Chapman's start 2 weeks ago was the worst I have charted in terms of control.
    Chapman being the worst that you've charted, can you name some other guys who are just above him?

  10. #54
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    Re: My take on Aroldis Chapman tonight

    Quote Originally Posted by GoReds View Post
    Chapman being the worst that you've charted, can you name some other guys who are just above him?
    Josh Ravin and JC Sulbaran. I actually have one game of Sulbaran where he was worse, but he also threw less than an inning that game (as a starter).

  11. #55
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    Re: My take on Aroldis Chapman tonight

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    I love trying to figure out what that has to do with ones knowledge about pitching....
    It's kind of like a guy playing Modern Warfare for 3 months straight, and reading a couple of books about war, and then trying to go lecture a platoon of Marines on what to expect in order to be successful in Afghanistan...
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  12. #56
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    Re: My take on Aroldis Chapman tonight

    Quote Originally Posted by REDblooded View Post
    It's kind of like a guy playing Modern Warfare for 3 months straight, and reading a couple of books about war, and then trying to go lecture a platoon of Marines on what to expect in order to be successful in Afghanistan...
    Who is the best pitching coach in baseball? If it isn't Dave Duncan, he is in the top 3, yes? How many games did he pitch above high school? Oh, zero.

    How many scouts were pitchers beyond high school? Does that make them unqualified to scout pitchers? What about pitchers who are now scouts, are they unqualified to scout anyone but pitchers?

    Now I clearly am no scout. But because I didn't pitch above high school means that I simply can't possess the knowledge as someone who did is erroneous in the slightest and insulting.

  13. #57

    Re: My take on Aroldis Chapman tonight

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Who is the best pitching coach in baseball? If it isn't Dave Duncan, he is in the top 3, yes? How many games did he pitch above high school? Oh, zero.

    How many scouts were pitchers beyond high school? Does that make them unqualified to scout pitchers? What about pitchers who are now scouts, are they unqualified to scout anyone but pitchers?

    Now I clearly am no scout. But because I didn't pitch above high school means that I simply can't possess the knowledge as someone who did is erroneous in the slightest and insulting.
    By just saying that Duncan didn't pitch above high school, you make him sound like someone who didn't play the game past the age of 18. He spent 11 years in the majors as a catcher, which probably has the most intimate knowledge of pitching outside of actually being a pitcher.

    But I do agree with you that not pitching above high school doesn't mean someone can't understand pitching.
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  14. #58
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    Re: My take on Aroldis Chapman tonight

    Quote Originally Posted by RS17TIMES View Post
    By just saying that Duncan didn't pitch above high school, you make him sound like someone who didn't play the game past the age of 18. He spent 11 years in the majors as a catcher, which probably has the most intimate knowledge of pitching outside of actually being a pitcher.

    But I do agree with you that not pitching above high school doesn't mean someone can't understand pitching.
    The point wasn't that he wasn't a pro, it was that he was not a pitcher past high school (or maybe even in high school - honestly don't know) and because of that, then he clearly can't know pitching according to the previous poster. Which of course is ridiculous. I am friends with a scout who played in high school, but didn't play in college and began being a scout at the age of 42 after working as a salesman for 20 years or so. He apparently is no qualified either. Someone should probably call his parent club and tell them they should let him go.

    Of course its all just going to an extreme to make a point, similar to what the original poster did.

  15. #59
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    Re: My take on Aroldis Chapman tonight

    Of course, dismissing the thoughts of someone that IS coaching at a level higher than high school seems a bit odd.

    So here we have a new poster. One that coaches at the college level, and coaches the sport we all love, and instead of picking his brain for nuances of pitching, philosophies etc, we are arguing the semantics of missing your mark.

    How very Redszonian. We do eat our young here don't we?

    I'm more amazed we haven't bombarded him with questions. Instead we get questions like how many games dougdirt has charted.

    oy flippin vey.
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  16. #60
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    Re: My take on Aroldis Chapman tonight

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    Of course, dismissing the thoughts of someone that IS coaching at a level higher than high school seems a bit odd.

    So here we have a new poster. One that coaches at the college level, and coaches the sport we all love, and instead of picking his brain for nuances of pitching, philosophies etc, we are arguing the semantics of missing your mark.

    How very Redszonian. We do eat our young here don't we?

    I'm more amazed we haven't bombarded him with questions. Instead we get questions like how many games dougdirt has charted.

    oy flippin vey.
    I don't think anyone is dismissing it at all. In fact, it has not been brought up once on Redszone that RS17 was actually a pitcher in college or a current pitching coach in college until the 4th page of this thread (unless I missed it, but I went back and looked). I am betting that 95% of the people who read this thread didn't know he was, so they clearly weren't going to ask questions aside from Chapman observations.


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