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Thread: On Homer's pitch count

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    On Homer's pitch count

    I know this was talked about in great detail on the game thread but I didn't get to write anything until now and didn't want to go back to the game thread.

    I think this game showed that Homer's just going to have to throw 100-120 pitches every game. If that's something that can be done and still have him be effective than fine. If not, they need to trade him or move him to the bullpen. He just can't be effective if he's operating under a 100 pitch ceiling we throw almost all other starters under.
    The good news is we've seen that he can in fact throw 120 pitches/game.

    Now it's just making sure he gets through a season doing it.
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    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
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    Re: On Homer's pitch count

    I could be wrong but I believe if you keep Homer out there for 110-115 pitches every game it will take a very negative toll on his arm much sooner than later.

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    Please come again pedro's Avatar
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    Re: On Homer's pitch count

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Madden View Post
    I could be wrong but I believe if you keep Homer out there for 110-115 pitches every game it will take a very negative toll on his arm much sooner than later.
    If the alternative is to take him out after 5 innings then that's the way it's going to have to be. I don't think he's being abused. I'm more worried about single inning pitch counts than I am about the difference between 100 and 115 pitches over the course of a game.
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    Re: On Homer's pitch count

    I didn't have a problem with it. Homer won't be throwing 125 every start but today I thought the situation called for it. The starters were awful for 97% of April and it has really tied Dusty's hands on what all he can do. And I felt like Bailey gave us the best chance to get Pujols out. Bailey was wearing out there is no doubt but he had enough for one more hitter and I thought he looked sharp against Pujols until the 3-2 pitch. Good outing by Homer and I think the bullpen showed why Dusty was hoping to be able to not go to them for as long as possible.

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    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: On Homer's pitch count

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Madden View Post
    I could be wrong but I believe if you keep Homer out there for 110-115 pitches every game it will take a very negative toll on his arm much sooner than later.
    I think Homer is the kind of guy who can do it routinely. I just don't like doing that with any pitcher until he reaches 25 years old or so. Homer should be a 200 inning guy this year, but he still should only be pushed to 110+ occassionally IMO. Next year might be the time to ride him a little longer.
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    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: On Homer's pitch count

    Quote Originally Posted by kbrake View Post
    I didn't have a problem with it. Homer won't be throwing 125 every start but today I thought the situation called for it. The starters were awful for 97% of April and it has really tied Dusty's hands on what all he can do. And I felt like Bailey gave us the best chance to get Pujols out. Bailey was wearing out there is no doubt but he had enough for one more hitter and I thought he looked sharp against Pujols until the 3-2 pitch. Good outing by Homer and I think the bullpen showed why Dusty was hoping to be able to not go to them for as long as possible.
    Put me down as in favor of letting Homer go back out there. The mistake was having Pujols at a full count with 1B open and throwing a pitch in the zone. They should have thrown one outside and hope he chases or let him walk and take your chances with Holiday.

    They just won 5 in a row and were going to lose eventually. With a tired pen against a tough opponent, it really is just a bump in the road. The team needs another late inning arm and another bat that can hit both lefties and righties somewhere out there (LF). Homer is still establishing himself and his performance is what I'm most interested in as far as 2010 goes, but he is far down the list of things that may cause this team to finish below .500 IMO.
    Last edited by mth123; 05-01-2010 at 05:51 PM.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

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    Re: On Homer's pitch count

    I had no problem with sending Homer back out there, however, I would've pulled him after he walked Skip Schumaker with one out. Ludwick was coming up and had smoked the ball in all three atbats against Bailey. My biggest beef of the day was when they chose to pitch to Pujols in the 7th inning with two outs and first base open. I have no idea why they continue to let Pujols beat them.
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    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: On Homer's pitch count

    What did major league managers do BEFORE pitch counts? Anybody?

    Whatever it was...that's what I suggest we do in regards to Homer. Tossing out some arbitrary number...and that's what it is...arbitrary, is not the solution. Watching him work and knowing HOW he works on a day-to-day basis is the key to managing his work load. The whole reason pitch counts are so emphasized is because people think that high pitch counts lead to tired arms which leads to altered mechanics which leads to injuries. And that's completely and totally correct. But here's the rub...nobody knows what that pitch count number is for a specific pitcher. Heck, it's different for every pitcher on every single night. Some guys can throw 120 pitches and be perfectly fine if they're throwing with a nice relaxed delivery and doing it with non-high stress innings.

    Bronson's an example of this. He throws the ball very smoothly and his mechanics alter very little regardless of his pitch count. He's a pitcher with a very average build too.

    Homer doesn't have a smooth delivery (at least not compared to many) and he's not a 'soft tosser'. However he offsets that by being young, big and strong. His stamina is quite good as well. He actually does better as the game wears on. He gets more comfortable with his windup and delivery as he gets into a more consistent rhythm the further he goes into the game. But that being said, sometimes he struggles (as do many) to find that rhythm and every pitch is much more stressful. Games like that, he could be spent after 80 pitches.

    It simply varies every single game for every single pitcher. This is the biggest problem I have with pitch counts. The only thing the pitch count should be used for is to alert the pitching coach & manager to keep a MUCH closer eye on the pitcher to watch for signs that he's tiring or laboring as those are the things that will cause injuries...not the number of pitches in and of themselves. Everytime I hear "he's at 100 pitches, time to yank him" it just makes me cringe. It can be a useful tool, but it should be one that is put in perspective with the player its being used on. And in general...it isn't.

    Okay, I feel better now. :O) /rant
    Last edited by _Sir_Charles_; 05-01-2010 at 06:50 PM. Reason: Changed "I can be a useful tool" to "IT can be a useful tool" hehe
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    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: On Homer's pitch count

    I don't care what the pitch count was, Homer was tired in the 7th, which was evident by the way he nearly walked Ryan before he bailed him out and the walk to Schumacher. His arm was lagging and he had no business pitching to Pujols. I don't care if your option is Fisher, you don't leave a tired pitcher out there to face a historically great batter in a key part of the game.
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    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
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    Re: On Homer's pitch count

    Back in the day pitchers were brought along with high pitch counts, those few whose arms never fell off made it to the Major Leagues.

    Now days pitchers are brought along with lower pitch counts in order to protect their arms. IMHO it wouldn't be wise to over extend any young pitcher once he makes it to the Big Leagues by substantially increasing his pitch count on a regular basis.

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    Re: On Homer's pitch count

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Madden View Post
    Back in the day pitchers were brought along with high pitch counts, those few whose arms never fell off made it to the Major Leagues.

    Now days pitchers are brought along with lower pitch counts in order to protect their arms. IMHO it wouldn't be wise to over extend any young pitcher once he makes it to the Big Leagues by substantially increasing his pitch count on a regular basis.
    Especially considering how much money is involved.
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    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
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    Re: On Homer's pitch count

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    I don't care what the pitch count was, Homer was tired in the 7th, which was evident by the way he nearly walked Ryan before he bailed him out and the walk to Schumacher. His arm was lagging and he had no business pitching to Pujols. I don't care if your option is Fisher, you don't leave a tired pitcher out there to face a historically great batter in a key part of the game.
    Agreed.

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    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
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    Re: On Homer's pitch count

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    Especially considering how much money is involved.

    Indeed.

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    Re: On Homer's pitch count

    Why risk it? We don't know how tired Homer was or not. I couldn't watch the game. Did Price or Baker ever go out and talk to Homer? Particularly when he was at 111 pitches before he pitched to Pujols? If they did and Homer gave input, then no fault there. If they didn't go out, shame on them.

  16. #15
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: On Homer's pitch count

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    What did major league managers do BEFORE pitch counts? Anybody?

    Whatever it was...that's what I suggest we do in regards to Homer. Tossing out some arbitrary number...and that's what it is...arbitrary, is not the solution. Watching him work and knowing HOW he works on a day-to-day basis is the key to managing his work load. The whole reason pitch counts are so emphasized is because people think that high pitch counts lead to tired arms which leads to altered mechanics which leads to injuries. And that's completely and totally correct. But here's the rub...nobody knows what that pitch count number is for a specific pitcher. Heck, it's different for every pitcher on every single night. Some guys can throw 120 pitches and be perfectly fine if they're throwing with a nice relaxed delivery and doing it with non-high stress innings.

    Bronson's an example of this. He throws the ball very smoothly and his mechanics alter very little regardless of his pitch count. He's a pitcher with a very average build too.

    Homer doesn't have a smooth delivery (at least not compared to many) and he's not a 'soft tosser'. However he offsets that by being young, big and strong. His stamina is quite good as well. He actually does better as the game wears on. He gets more comfortable with his windup and delivery as he gets into a more consistent rhythm the further he goes into the game. But that being said, sometimes he struggles (as do many) to find that rhythm and every pitch is much more stressful. Games like that, he could be spent after 80 pitches.

    It simply varies every single game for every single pitcher. This is the biggest problem I have with pitch counts. The only thing the pitch count should be used for is to alert the pitching coach & manager to keep a MUCH closer eye on the pitcher to watch for signs that he's tiring or laboring as those are the things that will cause injuries...not the number of pitches in and of themselves. Everytime I hear "he's at 100 pitches, time to yank him" it just makes me cringe. It can be a useful tool, but it should be one that is put in perspective with the player its being used on. And in general...it isn't.

    Okay, I feel better now. :O) /rant
    IMO being young is a reason to reduce the workload, not a way of offsetting other issues.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS


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