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Thread: Can The Reds Win With Bailey and Cueto?

  1. #16
    Brett William Moore Will M's Avatar
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    Re: Can The Reds Win With Bailey and Cueto?

    i don't hate Cueto. however, i do feel that he would be a better pitcher in the pen. mainly due to his mental lapses as a starter. as an added bonus his fastball would have a little more mph in the pen as he wouldn't have to pace himself.

    as to him being 'average' he is actually a bit below with a career ERA+ of 94 in 67 starts. take a second. 67 starts. and yet IMO he isn't showing improvement. how is he any different than the Johnny Cueto who pitched in May 2008?
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  3. #17
    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
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    Re: Can The Reds Win With Bailey and Cueto?

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    Why is there so much hate for Cueto on here? He showed improvement from his first to second year, and while he's off to a slow start this year, his last two starts have been much better.

    He'll be fine.
    Agreed. Cueto was one of the best starters in the league in the first half of last season before going through a rough 7-8 game stretch in the middle of the season. He was pretty much a league average starter last season as a 23 year old with limited experience above High-A. There's nothing wrong with that. I was pleased with the improvement he showed last season. Cueto is fine, IMO. Keep him in the rotation where he belongs.

    Same with Bailey. He's very frustrating to watch but the Reds need to stick with him and see if he can figure things out. The stuff is there but they need to find out if he can throw enough strikes to get hitters out on a consistent basis.
    I miss Adam Dunn.

  4. #18
    Brett William Moore Will M's Avatar
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    Re: Can The Reds Win With Bailey and Cueto?

    Quote Originally Posted by GADawg View Post
    btw why is it that everyone is always jonesing to trade Phillips? He's one of if not the best defensive middle infielder in the league and while he's no cleanup hitter he is still a very solid offensive player for his position. If it's his being the anti Adam Rosales then I can understand somewhat but otherwise I don't really get it. Without him what are you gonna fill that spot with...more Aaron Miles types?
    1. i agree that based on his overall offensive & defensive numbers he is an above average player
    2. i don't like the 'showboating'
    3. he makes some big bucks & next year makes a ton. the money he makes next year really needs to go for an impact player not a complimentary player
    4. 2B & LF should be (i know its the Reds) easier positions to fill than C, SS, CF, etc
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  5. #19
    Socratic Gadfly TheNext44's Avatar
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    Re: Can The Reds Win With Bailey and Cueto?

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    Why is there so much hate for Cueto on here? He showed improvement from his first to second year, and while he's off to a slow start this year, his last two starts have been much better.

    He'll be fine.
    I don't hate Cueto, or Bailey for that matter. In fact, I am very glad that the Reds have them on the team. They both have TOR stuff and could be TOR pitchers someday.

    Cueto is obviously farther along than Bailey, but he still is not "there." My question is can he get "there" while pitching in GABP. Same question for Bailey.

    I think that pitching in such a homer friendly park affects their overall mentality and approach, even in away games. It forces them to nibble more, to try to keep the other team from putting the ball in play. They both have ERA's over half a run higher at home. Just a theory from observation.

    I would love for both of them to develop into their true talent, I'm just not sure that they can do that pitching in GABP. I think it is now time for the team to turn the corner and figure out who fits into the overall plan and who doesn't. I think that the overall plan can't have two young developing fly ball pitchers like Cueto and Bailey. They have to trade at least one of them.
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

  6. #20
    Socratic Gadfly TheNext44's Avatar
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    Re: Can The Reds Win With Bailey and Cueto?

    Quote Originally Posted by GADawg View Post
    btw why is it that everyone is always jonesing to trade Phillips? He's one of if not the best defensive middle infielder in the league and while he's no cleanup hitter he is still a very solid offensive player for his position. If it's his being the anti Adam Rosales then I can understand somewhat but otherwise I don't really get it. Without him what are you gonna fill that spot with...more Aaron Miles types?
    I have made my case for trading Phillips in other threads, but here is the condensed version.

    He's the type of talent you build your team around. But he keeps making the same mistakes over and over again, and despite being called out in the media by his manager, over and over again, he does not learn or change. I see him being a constant problem/distraction in the clubhouse, and I see him continuing to make the same mistakes that hurt this team's chances to win. It is time for him to find another place to make these mistakes.
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

  7. #21
    SERP deep cover ops WebScorpion's Avatar
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    Re: Can The Reds Win With Bailey and Cueto?

    Quote Originally Posted by alexad View Post
    Young pitchers have to learn how to pitch at the MLB level. All good pitchers do this. Give them time. Be happy we have two young studs instead of rejects that we have seen thrown out there in the past. I would take Bailey and Cueto any day over an Eric Milton type that we pay big bucks to stink.
    This is pretty much my take on them too. They're just displaying typical young pitcher inconsistencies. Cueto is off to a slow start since he was told to take the winter off and I'm thinking he'll be in mid-season form around...uh, er...MID-SEASON!! Bailey is an interesting story; the dude gets better and stronger as the game wears on...he starts out throwing 93-94 and adds 1 mph for every two innings so he's throwing a free and easy 96-97 in the 7th inning. I think both of them give us a little something different and I see that as a strength in our rotation. Gone are the days we'd send 5 identical right-handed #4 pitchers in a row out there and expect them to somehow fool hitters. Now we've got a veteran power pitcher, a wily veteran with a 4 or 5 pitch repertoire, a couple young erratic power pitchers, and our young savant finesse pitcher. When Chapman gets his consistency down, we'll throw a power lefty in there in place of one of them and it will become very, very difficult for opposing hitters to time anything. I think the plan is coming together...try to enjoy seeing each little piece fall into place. This little team might just be a work of art in progress.


    Just so you know, I remember thinking that little second baseman who constantly flapped his arm and the loss of Lee May were the ruination of the Big Red Machine. You never can be too sure...

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  8. #22
    Member Strikes Out Looking's Avatar
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    Re: Can The Reds Win With Bailey and Cueto?

    I think we are all just frustrated with Cueto and Bailey, because we have seen glimpses of just how good they can be at times, but they are both very inconsistent in their own ways.

    I believe the Reds will give Bailey a few more starts to straighten himself out. While Dusty has said (and I paraphrase) that he's in the rotation no matter what; his performance this year tells me that unless he fixes himself, or there is an injury, he's the one who gets moved when they either bring up Chapman or decide to give Wood a look.

    Bailey has said he's had problems with his splitter this season. I wish the Reds could get Roger Craig to work with him to remedy it--is Craig even still alive?

    As to Cueto--he's been much more consistent than Bailey; he just seems to need more polishing. He throws too many pitches in the early innings of games and has problems getting to the sixth inning on a regular basis. Maybe the Reds should get a him some refreshers from Mario Soto.

    Both of these guys are still very young. The problem will be that even with their current performances, they will start to get expensive over the next couple of years; and if they don't improve enough, their overall costs will have the Reds move on.

    All in all, I prefer talking about these two guys (and Volquez, and Chapman, and Leake, and Moloney, and Wood, and LeCure) than about Milton, Harnish, Hamilton and all the other retreads the old Linder led Reds trotted out on an almost daily basis.

    The one other thing I'd like to see the organization do, is make the GABP more pitcher friendly, even if it costs a few hundred seats. (It's not like they are selling out every game).
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  9. #23
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Can The Reds Win With Bailey and Cueto?

    Both guys are talented. Some talented guys make it, others don't. But I know I'd rather be given innings and opportunities to talented, young pitchers than mediocre vets with no upside. It's frustrating, but this is just how it goes by-and-large.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  10. #24
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    Re: Can The Reds Win With Bailey and Cueto?

    That's why you don't conflate Bailey and Cueto.

  11. #25
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Can The Reds Win With Bailey and Cueto?

    Huh. Maybe the sky isn't falling after all.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  12. #26
    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: Can The Reds Win With Bailey and Cueto?

    Yeah, Bailey and Cueto don't belong in the same sentence.

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    Re: Can The Reds Win With Bailey and Cueto?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Huh. Maybe the sky isn't falling after all.
    Eh. I fully expect Bailey to perform CPR on the Pirates' offense tomorrow.

  14. #28
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    Re: Can The Reds Win With Bailey and Cueto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    Eh. I fully expect Bailey to perform CPR on the Pirates' offense tomorrow.
    As I fully expect you to be wrong.
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  15. #29
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    Re: Can The Reds Win With Bailey and Cueto?

    Quote Originally Posted by 11larkin11 View Post
    As I fully expect you to be wrong.
    The guy's never met a bit he didn't want to spit.

  16. #30
    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
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    Re: Can The Reds Win With Bailey and Cueto?

    Awesome, awesome start by Johnny Cueto. That's one of the more dominant outings I've seen by a Reds starting pitcher. That's the first complete game one hit shutout by a Reds pitcher since John Smiley did it against the Cardinals on September 22nd, 1996. I'm so happy for him - he seems like a great guy. There's very few pitchers in the game with more talent than Cueto. When he's on like he was tonight he's almost unhittable. He was about 6-12 inches away from throwing a no-hitter.

    Hopefully Homer Bailey can begin to turn his season around tomorrow and help complete a sweep of the Pirates.
    Last edited by OnBaseMachine; 05-11-2010 at 10:28 PM.
    I miss Adam Dunn.


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