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Thread: The Lebron saga

  1. #346
    Mr.Redlegs is my homeboy Eric_the_Red's Avatar
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    Re: The Lebron saga

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Red View Post
    A couple things to point out.
    1) Don't you think David Robinson would be thought of more highly had he won a championship independant of Duncan? That's not to say Robinson's not considered great, he unquestionably is, but certainly his legacy would be even stronger if he had won a championship on his own. Unfortunately he played at the same time as Michael Jordan so they were kind of tough to come by.

    2) The Heat haven't won anything yet. They have a tougher road to the finals than the Lakers do, and the big three are each going to have to play a ton of minutes all season because there are going to be 6 other stiffs and Mario Chalmers in the rotation.

    3) If for whatever reason they don't win at least a ring or two, Lebron will look like Barkley and Malone, two hall of fame caliber players who never won a ring and went around at the end of their careers trying to cherry pick one. But even if he does get one, do you think people will feel as good for him as they did for say Ray Borque who played his entire career for the Boston Bruins without a ring and finally got one in his last year when he went to Colorado?
    1) Not really. I think intelligent fans know how great David Robinson was before and after Duncan. Dan Marino is an all-time great QB too.

    2) True, it will be tough. All the more reason that LeBron's legacy should've be tarnished if they do win it all.

    3) I don't think anything will make people who aren't already/still fans of LeBron feel good for him. That ship has sailed.

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  3. #347
    Mr.Redlegs is my homeboy Eric_the_Red's Avatar
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    Re: The Lebron saga

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeRed27 View Post
    The measuring stick here is Michael Jordan. He is the alpha dog. Kobe Bryant has also raised up to this level. Lebron though the hype that both he, fans and the media created was supposed to be on that level. Many had put him there already based solely on his talent, even though he clearly hadn't earned it with championships. What he did last night was ensure he will never be put on that level. That only really matters because he has said that was something that was important to him. If he wanted that he needed to dig his heels in and finish what he started. He didn't. He took the easy way out.

    This doesn't take away from any other of the great players legacies at all. People don't compare Lebron to Magic or Duncan or West. Those guys did their thing and did it well. People do compare Lebron to Jordan and Kobe and Lebron just blew it.
    Michael Jordan had Scottie Pippen, a top 50 all-time player.
    Kobe had Shaq when he was still Shaq, and Gasol/Artest. Let's put it this way. If Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant were on recent Cavs teams at the same age as LeBron, do you think they would have won it all? I'm of the opinion that they would not have won the title.

  4. #348
    Charlie Brown All-Star IslandRed's Avatar
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    Re: The Lebron saga

    Not surprising he's getting killed for leaving Cleveland, but lots of people would have killed him for staying -- getting more money from the Cavs than anyone else could pay + a team without the supporting cast to win = "he cares more about money than winning." You know that would have been the spin from the teams that didn't land him.
    Not all who wander are lost

  5. #349
    Mr.Redlegs is my homeboy Eric_the_Red's Avatar
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    Re: The Lebron saga

    Quote Originally Posted by TeamSelig View Post

    That's a lot of viewers considering that all I heard was how much people could care less and wouldn't watch.

  6. #350
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    Re: The Lebron saga

    My overall thoughts:
    1) The Cavs made a huge mistake in constantly bringing in veterans to make LeBron happy. They made decisions mostly to keep him around instead of truly bettering the team.
    2) The Dan Gilbert letter is an embarassment. He is mad because his franchise just became irrelevant again and stands to lose $100 million in value.
    http://blogs.forbes.com/sportsmoney/...and-cavaliers/
    3) Could LeBron have handled this differently, sure. But, think about it this way. His entire life has been in front of a camera. We've known LeBron since he was 12 or 13. In a way, he is living the Truman Show, only he knows it. So when he takes his act in front of the cameras, should we be surprised or outraged?
    4) I think this change in scenary is good for LeBron. This will allow him to take more of the Magic role that he came into the league with. Remember, we were all more amazed with his passing than with his scoring when he came into the league. We may finally get to see what a faster Magic Johnson with a 40 inch vertical leap looks like.
    5) Cavs fans should be grateful to LeBron. Think about it this way. First, you only got him because the ping pong balls fell a certain way. Second, how often does a true superstar get to play in his home town and have it work? We all remember the Junior situation here in Cincy.
    Variatio delectat - Cicero

  7. #351
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    Re: The Lebron saga

    The sad thing is the NBA, the networks and the media are going to hype and market the daylights out of the Heat and when he does finally win his championship they will treat it like some sort of glorious acheivment and pretty much everything else going on now will die an annonymous forgotten death.

    Kobe Bryant is a great example. How many people remember him threatening to go to the Clippers if they did not get rid of Shaq and make him the man. Who remembers him absolutely killing his GM for doing everything he wanted and then pissing and moaning the team was not good enough. A couple suspicious trades later he is surrounded with talent and he is the megastar, 5 time champion, next Jordan,etc and all the past is forgotten.

    I know people talk about lack of parity in baseball, but the NBA is the Yankees, the Red Sox and 28 flavors of the Pittsburgh Pirates and that is WITH a salary cap. The league is a joke.

  8. #352
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    Re: The Lebron saga

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric_the_Red View Post
    Michael Jordan had Scottie Pippen, a top 50 all-time player.
    Kobe had Shaq when he was still Shaq, and Gasol/Artest. Let's put it this way. If Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant were on recent Cavs teams at the same age as LeBron, do you think they would have won it all? I'm of the opinion that they would not have won the title.
    Yes I do believe that Jordan or Bryant could have won it all last year on the Cavs. I also believe that had Lebron not injured his elbow in the Bulls series that the Cavs would have reached the Finals (I think they would have lost to LA) but those are the breaks.

    Don't get me wrong here because I think Scottie Pippen is a great player, but Jordan didn't need him. He helped for sure, but there are a lot of guys that could have been Scottie Pippen.

  9. #353
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    Re: The Lebron saga

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric_the_Red View Post
    1) Not really. I think intelligent fans know how great David Robinson was before and after Duncan. Dan Marino is an all-time great QB too.

    2) True, it will be tough. All the more reason that LeBron's legacy should've be tarnished if they do win it all.
    I think you're missing the argument though. Is Robinson in the argument for all time greatest Center or is he thought of along the lines of Ewing, maybe a step below Olajuwon?

    I think you made the argument a few pages ago that this is like ARod going to the Yankees. Once the Yankees won, there was no more talk of couldn't win the big one, or playoff choker.
    But as I pointed out, he didn't get as much credit as he deserved either. By going to the Heat, Lebron won't be getting as much credit if and when they do win a title as he would if he "led" another team. Of course his chances of winning a title and getting the "couldn't win the big one" off his back are improved as well.

    Essentially this is all about perception so none of it can be proven one way or another but I think LeBron probably took himself out of the running for the mythical "greatest player ever" status. That's not a knock on him, but everything until this year suggested that he wanted to be a global icon and known in that argument with MJ and Russell.

    As silly as it sounds, it's like he's settling for a more sure spot in the top 10 or 20 players of all time, when he could have risked it to go down as one of the all time best.
    When people say that I donít know what Iím talking about when it comes to sports or writing, I think: Man, you should see me in the rest of my life.
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  10. #354
    Member improbus's Avatar
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    Re: The Lebron saga

    Quote Originally Posted by krm1580 View Post
    I know people talk about lack of parity in baseball, but the NBA is the Yankees, the Red Sox and 28 flavors of the Pittsburgh Pirates and that is WITH a salary cap. The league is a joke.
    That's not really a fair comparison because one player can impact basketball significantly more than baseball. So, getting that one great player means everything in basketball. I don't think it has anything to do with the league, but instead has more to do with the structure of the sport itself. It is the same fundamental flaw that football has with QB's. The sport is almost overwhelmingly relient on dominant QB's.
    Variatio delectat - Cicero

  11. #355
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    Re: The Lebron saga

    Quote Originally Posted by Razor Shines View Post
    They are better than the big three when they all went to Boston. I will bet any type of Redszone bet you want that the Heat will be in the finals next year.

    I don't think Rose and Lebron would have worked, they both need the ball too much. Wade doesn't need the ball as much, he seems very comfortable getting his shot without having to pound the ball for 10-15 seconds.
    I'm not saying they won't be in the Finals. In the East, they're probably good enough to make it there. But give me Kobe, Lamar, and Gasol over the three of them. I could be dead wrong about this, and the Heat could own the NBA for the next decade. But I don't see it happening.

  12. #356
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    Re: The Lebron saga

    I am sure Kobe or Jordan would have had a better series vs Boston than LeBron did.

  13. #357
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    Re: The Lebron saga

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    I am sure Kobe or Jordan would have had a better series vs Boston than LeBron did.
    Kobe has the ring to prove it.

  14. #358
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    Re: The Lebron saga

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    I am sure Kobe or Jordan would have had a better series vs Boston than LeBron did.
    Ummm...Kobe shot 37% in the games they won. He wasn't that great. Gasol was the actual "On the Court MVP."
    Variatio delectat - Cicero

  15. #359
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    Re: The Lebron saga

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric_the_Red View Post
    Michael Jordan had Scottie Pippen, a top 50 all-time player.
    Kobe had Shaq when he was still Shaq, and Gasol/Artest. Let's put it this way. If Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant were on recent Cavs teams at the same age as LeBron, do you think they would have won it all? I'm of the opinion that they would not have won the title.
    Michael Jordan had Scottie Pippen... and what else? Rodman was a great rebounder, but after that you're looking at the Kukocs and Kerrs of the world. Does MJ win a title with that Cleveland roster? I don't know. But what I do know is he doesn't get STOMPED in Boston, going down without a whimper.

  16. #360
    Member improbus's Avatar
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    Re: The Lebron saga

    Quote Originally Posted by cincrazy View Post
    Michael Jordan had Scottie Pippen... and what else? Rodman was a great rebounder, but after that you're looking at the Kukocs and Kerrs of the world. Does MJ win a title with that Cleveland roster? I don't know. But what I do know is he doesn't get STOMPED in Boston, going down without a whimper.
    If you listen to basketball people, they think Rodman was a HOF player. He may have been the greatest rebounder in the history of basketball. Look at his numbers, they're frightening. (And don't break out the Chamberlain/Russell comparison, they played against 6'7'' white guys. It's wasn't even the same sport then.)
    Variatio delectat - Cicero


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