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Thread: Cliff Lee

  1. #91
    Reds Slacker '07 RedsMan3203's Avatar
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    What about Vazquez?
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  3. #92
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsMan3203 View Post
    What about Vazquez?
    I'd take a chance on him if the Yankees would pay his salary. He probably wouldn't cost that much in terms of talent.
    Go BLUE!!!

  4. #93
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    I don't think I need to look for more clarity elsewhere and I don't appreciate the insults, Benihana. I think trading for Cliff Lee in order to win a stinking division title is to think small. I want to see the team built with one goal in mind: to dominate baseball for a decade if possible. And as to keeping Alonso in AAA for three years. I didn't suggest that. If he can play LF, he'll be able to help sooner. That's still to be seen. But I do think it's worth looking at a post Joey Votto future, b/c it seems highly unlikely this team is going to be able to afford Votto, Bruce, and what it's going to need to keep from the pitching staff.

  5. #94
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Quote Originally Posted by HokieRed View Post
    I don't think I need to look for more clarity elsewhere and I don't appreciate the insults, Benihana. I think trading for Cliff Lee in order to win a stinking division title is to think small. I want to see the team built with one goal in mind: to dominate baseball for a decade if possible. And as to keeping Alonso in AAA for three years. I didn't suggest that. If he can play LF, he'll be able to help sooner. That's still to be seen. But I do think it's worth looking at a post Joey Votto future, b/c it seems highly unlikely this team is going to be able to afford Votto, Bruce, and what it's going to need to keep from the pitching staff.
    And if he can't play LF without neutralizing the (potential) offensive value of his bat?


    Relax, I wasn't trying to insult you. My apologies if you were offended.
    Last edited by Benihana; 05-17-2010 at 11:01 PM.
    Go BLUE!!!

  6. #95
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Quote Originally Posted by Benihana View Post
    Relax, I wasn't trying to insult you. My apologies if you were offended.
    I appreciate the apology but I don't believe the first part of your statement.

  7. #96
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Quote Originally Posted by HokieRed View Post
    I appreciate the apology but I don't believe the first part of your statement.
    I apologized if it came across as crude or harsh. If you think it's a personal issue, please PM me.
    Go BLUE!!!

  8. #97
    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Quote Originally Posted by HokieRed View Post
    But I do think it's worth looking at a post Joey Votto future, b/c it seems highly unlikely this team is going to be able to afford Votto, Bruce, and what it's going to need to keep from the pitching staff.
    Indeed, and this is why building a team that can contend year after year is nearly impossible, the Reds can't afford it, going for it all when they have a chance is more attainable for little market teams, the 1970's aren't coming back.

    All that is worth going after is banners and rings.
    Go Gators!

  9. #98
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Quote Originally Posted by KronoRed View Post
    Indeed, and this is why building a team that can contend year after year is nearly impossible, the Reds can't afford it, going for it all when they have a chance is more attainable for little market teams, the 1970's aren't coming back.

    All that is worth going after is banners and rings.

    That's conceding too much. You can't give in at all and win at this game.

  10. #99
    Socratic Gadfly TheNext44's Avatar
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Quote Originally Posted by HokieRed View Post
    But I do think it's worth looking at a post Joey Votto future, b/c it seems highly unlikely this team is going to be able to afford Votto, Bruce, and what it's going to need to keep from the pitching staff.
    The Rays, Twins, Rockies, Brewers, Rangers, Padres and Diamondbacks have kept all of their top prospects and been in contention during these last three years, all with payrolls very similar to the Reds.

    The Reds can easily keep Bruce, Votto, Cueto, and Bailey, as long as they stay away from giving out big contracts to guys like Cordero, Harang and Arroyo in the future. Those guys will be off the books by the time this is an issue, and Jocketty has built a lot of payflex into the Reds future.

    Worst case scenario, they have to trade one of those big four, but if they are all producing, they will get a ton back for whoever they chose to trade. If not, then they won't have to pay them.

    Money is only an issue when you don't spend it wisely.
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

  11. #100
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNext44 View Post
    The Rays, Twins, Rockies, Brewers, Rangers, Padres and Diamondbacks have kept all of their top prospects and been in contention during these last three years, all with payrolls very similar to the Reds.

    The Reds can easily keep Bruce, Votto, Cueto, and Bailey, as long as they stay away from giving out big contracts to guys like Cordero, Harang and Arroyo in the future. Those guys will be off the books by the time this is an issue, and Jocketty has built a lot of payflex into the Reds future.

    Worst case scenario, they have to trade one of those big four, but if they are all producing, they will get a ton back for whoever they chose to trade. If not, then they won't have to pay them.

    Money is only an issue when you don't spend it wisely.
    Get no argument from me about the three current contracts you mention. But I suspect you are underestimating what it will cost to keep Votto and Bruce.

  12. #101
    Socratic Gadfly TheNext44's Avatar
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Quote Originally Posted by HokieRed View Post
    Get no argument from me about the three current contracts you mention. But I suspect you are underestimating what it will cost to keep Votto and Bruce.
    Assuming that they are both All-Stars, top 3 in the league at their position, they would earn approximately $7M, $10M and $13M in their three arbitration years each.

    Assuming that the same for Cueto and and Bailey, they would earn approximately $5M, $8M and $12M in their arbitration years.

    Votto's and Cueto's starts in 2011, Bruce's and Bailey's in 2012.

    So for 2011, the four would make around $15M total, in 2012, around $30M total and in 2013 around $35M total.

    So worst case scenario, in 2013, after three years of All-Star production from these four, they would take up around 35% of the payroll. That's really not too much for the Reds to handle, but even if it is, then trade one of them for a boatload of prospects. By that time, the Reds should have a cheap replacement for at least one of them in house, either with one of the prospects they currently have, or with a draft pick between now and then.

    And more importantly, if all four are All-Stars for the next three years, the Reds will be in the playoffs all three years (which includes this year) and be one of the best teams in baseball.
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

  13. #102
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Again no argument. I'm entirely in favor of keeping the cheap in-house replacement we have who promises, IMO, to be pretty close to equal in value to the guy he'll replace--Yonder Alonso. But I think if you start to edge toward 40% of payroll for 4 players, you start to come close to the kind of inflexibility we have now. As you rightly point out, it's not an immediate worry--except in the context where it came up, the call by some to trade Alonso for Lee or presumably other very short term help.

  14. #103
    Brett William Moore Will M's Avatar
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    IMO the Twins are a good model for the Reds to emulate. (with one exception: when the Twins go outside their team to spend money they often don't do it wisely). i would like for the Reds to try & build a team than can contend year after year. set the bar at 85 or more wins. any year you don't win 85 games is a failure & something went wrong. the current Reds seem to set the bar a lot lower.

    as to a mega deal for Cliff Lee: it doesn't fit the Twins model. the team would trade several of their best prospects for a 3 month rental. not a good long term plan. the Reds don't need to hoard every prospect but they have to be able to build from within. from the All stars to the everyday players to the bench guys they are all a LOT cheaper in years 1-6 than in years 7+ (especially cheap in years 1-2-3).
    .

  15. #104
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    I think this is a bit of a moot issue. Lee won't cost some one like Bruce. We saw what the Phillies paid for him and what they got for him and both packages were easily something the Reds could handle without dealing Bruce or maybe not even Alonso (the Phils also got Ben Francisco in that deal). By July his value will be even lower. A package along the lines of Wood, Frazier, Heisey, Ondrusek would be more than enough (it won't be for a year and a half of Lee like the Phils got when they dealt Carlios Carrasco, Lou Marson, Steven Register and John Mayberry Jr) and the Reds wouldn't really miss any of those redundancies. The M's paid even less in the offseason.
    Last edited by mth123; 05-18-2010 at 04:08 AM.
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  16. #105
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    They've produced a pythag .500 team.
    Pythag is pretty useless, especially in May


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