Turn Off Ads?
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 16

Thread: Maybe pitch counts are important.

  1. #1
    Moderator The Operator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Carlisle, OH
    Posts
    2,713

    Maybe pitch counts are important.

    Homer Bailey just left the game after showing bad body language involving his throwing elbow after a pitch. Didn't look good.

    Maybe running him through the ringer for 121 pitches in St. Louis wasn't acceptable after all?

  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #2
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    2,079

    Re: Maybe pitch counts are important.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Operator View Post
    Homer Bailey just left the game after showing bad body language involving his throwing elbow after a pitch. Didn't look good.

    Maybe running him through the ringer for 121 pitches in St. Louis wasn't acceptable after all?
    We don't know what the injury was. Maybe he was cramping...which is due to poor hydration, lack of potassium, etc. Maybe it's some sort of tightness...maybe it's tommy john time. Can't associate a previous start of 121 pitches as causation or him leaving the game. As someone pointed out in the game thread, he has averaged 106 pitchers per start this season. That is not bad at all, especially considering how Homer loves to run up his pitch count.

  4. #3
    Stat geek...and proud
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    New Paris, OH
    Posts
    2,576

    Re: Maybe pitch counts are important.

    It's not the one start at 121 that hurts guys, it's the repeated starts at 121 that hurts guys, from what I've read in the past.

  5. #4
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    913

    Re: Maybe pitch counts are important.

    I highly doubt 1 start over 3 weeks ago is the reason for his arm problem yesterday.

  6. #5
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Louisville
    Posts
    547

    Re: Maybe pitch counts are important.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Operator View Post
    Homer Bailey just left the game after showing bad body language involving his throwing elbow after a pitch. Didn't look good.

    Maybe running him through the ringer for 121 pitches in St. Louis wasn't acceptable after all?
    Really? 121 pitches is being "rung through the ringer?" What is a ringer anyway? Whatever it is, throwing 121 pitches is doing your job, if you are a major league pitcher. If you can't throw 121 pitches, every 3rd or 4th start, you should be elsewhere.
    Last edited by KySteveH; 05-24-2010 at 05:45 PM. Reason: spelling typos

  7. #6
    The Franchise sivman17's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Akron, OH
    Posts
    736

    Re: Maybe pitch counts are important.

    121 pitches is nothing

  8. #7
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    6,419

    Re: Maybe pitch counts are important.

    121 is nothing so much that it only happens like 20 times year. Clearly its just nothing.

  9. #8
    The Franchise sivman17's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Akron, OH
    Posts
    736

    Re: Maybe pitch counts are important.

    Quote Originally Posted by GIDP View Post
    121 is nothing so much that it only happens like 20 times year. Clearly its just nothing.
    46 times in 2009 a starter threw over 120 pitches
    71 times in 2008
    454 times in 2000

    There are a lot more injuries today than in 2000 and in years before that when pitch counts over 120 were very common. Pitch counts are not the only thing to blame pitchers' injuries on.

  10. #9
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    6,419

    Re: Maybe pitch counts are important.

    Apparently Baseball Reference didnt work when I put it in.

    BTW can you prove that there is a lot more injuries today than in 2000? Just wondering if there is anyway you can prove that one.

  11. #10
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Louisville
    Posts
    547

    Re: Maybe pitch counts are important.

    According to Sivman's numbers, 10 years ago, it was much more common to have a starter go 120+ pitches. In fact, it was or the order of 10 times more frequent. If the argument for lower pitch counts is that we can avoid injuries to pitchers, then it would seem like we would see fewer injuries today than 10 years ago.

    Can you prove that is happening?

  12. #11
    The Franchise sivman17's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Akron, OH
    Posts
    736

    Re: Maybe pitch counts are important.

    Quote Originally Posted by GIDP View Post
    Apparently Baseball Reference didnt work when I put it in.

    BTW can you prove that there is a lot more injuries today than in 2000? Just wondering if there is anyway you can prove that one.
    http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/column...tim&id=4359938

    I guess I can't actually prove it, but I can take Tim Kurkjian's word for it, which I think is a pretty reliable source.

    I just realized the 46 number might not be totally accurate from last year. 1.9% of starts up to the point of that article had been over 120 pitches. 1.9% for the whole season would be 46, but I don't know exactly how many games there were before this article was published.

  13. #12
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    2,079

    Re: Maybe pitch counts are important.

    Quote Originally Posted by sivman17 View Post
    http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/column...tim&id=4359938

    I guess I can't actually prove it, but I can take Tim Kurkjian's word for it, which I think is a pretty reliable source.

    I just realized the 46 number might not be totally accurate from last year. 1.9% of starts up to the point of that article had been over 120 pitches. 1.9% for the whole season would be 46, but I don't know exactly how many games there were before this article was published.
    Well if you take the 1.9% over the course of the season you have 30 teams X 162 starts per team X .019 = 92 starts. So it would be fair to make that an estimate.

    I agree the lower pitch counts are not lowering injuries. Their are more injuries now than ever because the pitching focus went to power, strikeouts, and breaking balls for most of the steroid era. Now you are seeing a trend back to control and natural sinking movement, basically pitchers like Leake, Maddux, etc. It is much easier for these kinds of pitchers to go 120+ pitchers. I think we see pitch counts back on the increase in the near future.

  14. #13
    The Franchise sivman17's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Akron, OH
    Posts
    736

    Re: Maybe pitch counts are important.

    Quote Originally Posted by Griffey012 View Post
    Well if you take the 1.9% over the course of the season you have 30 teams X 162 starts per team X .019 = 92 starts. So it would be fair to make that an estimate.
    Oh yeah good call. I was using 2,430, which is the total number of games every year. You are correct. 92 is a much better estimate than 46.

  15. #14
    The Franchise sivman17's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Akron, OH
    Posts
    736

    Re: Maybe pitch counts are important.

    http://news.cincinnati.com/article/2...r-Bailey-on-DL

    Jocketty stressed that the injury was not a result of overuse.

    “One thing that Kremchek also made a point of is that this is not from overwork or overuse,” Jocketty said. “He probably tried to put too much effort on a pitch or two that caused it and he tried to pitch with it. What happened is it got worse.”
    “He hasn’t thrown that many pitches.”

  16. #15
    Moderator The Operator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Carlisle, OH
    Posts
    2,713

    Re: Maybe pitch counts are important.

    I don't think you'll see the GM come out and say "Yea, we abused him. Our bad on that. Sorry, Homer."

    Not to mention Kremcheck is well known for being overly optimistic. Remember all those rosy outlooks on when we'd be getting Junior back in the lineup back in the early part of the decade? None of those turned out very well.

    My main premise is that, as much money is wrapped up in these guys, there's no reason to RISK injuring them with high pitch counts, whether or not they might be able to handle it.

    Yes, guys were able to go a lot longer in games back in the day but there also less teams, so the talent pool wasn't nearly as watered down as today. Not to mention that for every Bob Gibson and Nolan Ryan I'm sure there were many pitchers who fell by the wayside since they couldn't handle those insane workloads. Wayne Simpson comes to mind.

    Any time a pitcher leaves a game due to anything arm or shoulder related, it's bad. I don't care if they downplay it or not. With as used up as the bullpen's been lately, them pulling Bailey tells me something.

    Now he's on the DL. Supposedly not serious but neither was Volquez's last year... until he had Tommy John Surgery.

    Also, I've seen a good number of people both on here and the ORG say Homer should handle a higher workload because he's a big Texan workhorse. Really? Because yes he is tall, but he looks pretty skinny to me. His sleeves look huge around his arms. Not to mention he's 23.


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25