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Thread: The Ultimate Defense Thread

  1. #1
    High five! nate's Avatar
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    The Ultimate Defense Thread

    I think we're bogging down some other threads with a tangential discussion of defense so perhaps this thread can serve as a catch-all for the defensive diversions. I'm not entirely sure but I think these two statements summarize where we're at in the other threads:

    POINT: Gomes is a terrible defender who gives away a ton of his bat's value with his glove. He's probably worth the money being paid to him. Chris Heisey is likely to outproduce him given the chance.

    COUNTERPOINT: You overvalue defense
    POINT: Orlando Cabrera is a poor defender who would give back his offensive value if he had any offensive value. He's way overpaid for his production. Paul Janish has similar value for a lot less money.

    COUNTERPOINT: You overvalue defense and you're fat
    OK, discuss!

    "Bring on Rod Stupid!"

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    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: The Ultimate Defense Thread

    Oh, Lord.
    The Rally Onion wants 150 fans before Opening Day.

    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Rally-...24872650873160

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    Re: The Ultimate Defense Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    Oh, Lord.
    I hope you're wearing a seatbelt!
    "Bring on Rod Stupid!"

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    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: The Ultimate Defense Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by nate View Post
    I hope you're wearing a seatbelt!

    The over/under of posts on this thread is 450. I'm taking the over.
    The Rally Onion wants 150 fans before Opening Day.

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  6. #5
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    Re: The Ultimate Defense Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    The over/under of posts on this thread is 450. I'm taking the over.
    We'll need some serious odds for the undertakers.

    Lol, get it?
    "Bring on Rod Stupid!"

  7. #6
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: The Ultimate Defense Thread

    Defense is like love, you know what's good, what's bad, what you can live with and what you can live without, everyone can see it in some form, but its payment to that person is likely to be processed differently then it's processed by the next person.

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    Re: The Ultimate Defense Thread

    Defense is like love, you know what's good, what's bad, what you can live with and what you can live without, everyone can see it in some form, but its payment to that person is likely to be processed differently then it's processed by the next person.
    In it for the money, or the metrics?
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  9. #8
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: The Ultimate Defense Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by nate View Post
    We'll need some serious odds for the undertakers.

    Lol, get it?
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    The Rally Onion wants 150 fans before Opening Day.

    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Rally-...24872650873160

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    Re: The Ultimate Defense Thread

    There is a huge difference between defensive value at SS than LF.

    There is a huge difference in offensive value (right now anyway) between Gomes (the NL RBI leader) and Cabrerra.

    You can easiliy make an argument that Cabrerra's offensive value over Janish doesn't justify the defenisive difference between them.

    I don't believe you can make an argument that Gomes' offensive value doesn't offset his defensive deficiencies at his curent rate of production, given the lesss value LF is in the defensive scheme of things.

  11. #10
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    Re: The Ultimate Defense Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    There is a huge difference between defensive value at SS than LF.
    There is! It's accounted for in WAR.

    High five!

    There is a huge difference in offensive value (right now anyway) between Gomes (the NL RBI leader) and Cabrerra.
    A number of metrics that measure individual performance better than RBI verify that this is indeed, true.

    High five!

    You can easiliy make an argument that Cabrerra's offensive value over Janish doesn't justify the defenisive difference between them.
    OK, go ahead!

    I don't believe you can make an argument that Gomes' offensive value doesn't offset his defensive deficiencies at his curent rate of production, given the lesss value LF is in the defensive scheme of things.
    It's the other way around. His defense gives back the majority of his offense.

    I'll tell you one of the stats that tells me this. It's one not related to UZR, WAR, wOBA or smiles per inning.

    His salary.
    "Bring on Rod Stupid!"

  12. #11
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: The Ultimate Defense Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    I don't believe you can make an argument that Gomes' offensive value doesn't offset his defensive deficiencies at his curent rate of production, given the lesss value LF is in the defensive scheme of things.
    Except that there are multiple things you aren't addressing. There is a baseline of 'average' at each position. Average in left field is the 'expected' for all left fielders. They get about 325 balls they are reasonably expected to 'turn into outs' in a full season (line drives, fly balls) based on the 2009 qualified players in terms of their balls in zone and average 'out of zone plays made' over a full season. If the average baseline of turning those balls in a left fielders zone is 89%, and your guy is only doing it at say 82% and they also have 20 fewer 'out of zone plays made' we are now looking at an additional 35 hits given up by the 82% guy (one ever 4-5 games). Left field or shortstop, 35 hits is 35 hits (and I would actually argue 35 hits given up to left is a lot more hurtful than 35 hits by the shortstop given the extra base hits mixed in on those to left).

  13. #12
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: The Ultimate Defense Thread

    To a layperson like me, defensive stats are nice but not a be-all end-all. I view them as somewhat-subjective, and I don't think they consider defensive positioning.

    Look at that play BP made the other day where he went paralell to catch the ball...you can't tell me that play got its true due in his defensive stats.

  14. #13
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: The Ultimate Defense Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    To a layperson like me, defensive stats are nice but not a be-all end-all. I view them as somewhat-subjective, and I don't think they consider defensive positioning.

    Look at that play BP made the other day where he went paralell to catch the ball...you can't tell me that play got its true due in his defensive stats.
    Positioning is part of defense. Range matters, but if a guy only has to go 8 feet to get the ball because he positions himself better than the guy who can go 12 feet to get it, doesn't matter. Both players got to the ball right?

    Sounds like you are indeed a layperson because the right defensive stats do indeed take into consideration positioning because positioning helps or hurts a player in terms of turning a ball into an out.

  15. #14
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: The Ultimate Defense Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Positioning is part of defense. Range matters, but if a guy only has to go 8 feet to get the ball because he positions himself better than the guy who can go 12 feet to get it, doesn't matter. Both players got to the ball right?

    Sounds like you are indeed a layperson because the right defensive stats do indeed take into consideration positioning because positioning helps or hurts a player in terms of turning a ball into an out.
    I don't worry about positioning as a whole because I believe it largely evens out. However, when you're trying to evaluate the talent of a player on defense, positioning is a big deal because a better scouting report can give a mediocre player a chance to get to many more balls than he otherwise would. Consequently, more balls could get by a better defender who is victimized by poor positioning of his team.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  16. #15
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: The Ultimate Defense Thread

    What about managierial shifts that dont allow a fielder to get to a ball that he normally would have gotten.


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