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Thread: John Erardi article: When will Reds shut down Mike Leake?

  1. #16
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: John Erardi article: When will Reds shut down Mike Leake?

    Quote Originally Posted by alexad View Post
    Pitchers use to pitch in a four man rotation. If you want to shut down pitchers, then we need to start going to 6 man rotations. If the kids is good enough to be in the bigs, and the team is in contention, you have to pitch him. It is about winning now for the Reds, not in the future. This team needs to start playing and thinking like a team in contention, not a pretender.
    He's 22. This isn't an argument that pitchers can't pitch more innings, its that building them to that level at a young age needs to be done gradually. Too much too soon, 142 IP in 2009 against college hitters is alot less stressful than IP against major leaguers. I'd say a jump to 175 IP is quite a big one given the competition. Over-stress that arm and run the risk that it doesn't bounce back in 2011. Then we see the same pattern that we've seen so many times. Start the following season with reduced arm strength. Make minor changes to compensate which shows up as reduced command. Then after enough IP with the altered motion, the pain starts coming on.

    Leake ought to be a workhorse most of his career, but lets go easy getting there. 175 IP in 2010, 200 to 210 IP in 2011 and as much as he can take after that when he'll be the ripe old age of 24. Why risk it right here at the beginning of his career?
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

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  3. #17
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: John Erardi article: When will Reds shut down Mike Leake?

    Quote Originally Posted by alexad View Post
    Pitchers use to pitch in a four man rotation. If you want to shut down pitchers, then we need to start going to 6 man rotations. If the kids is good enough to be in the bigs, and the team is in contention, you have to pitch him. It is about winning now for the Reds, not in the future. This team needs to start playing and thinking like a team in contention, not a pretender.
    And every team, contender or pretender would do the same thing the Reds are going to do. They all do it.

  4. #18
    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: John Erardi article: When will Reds shut down Mike Leake?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    It was 160, but I don't think you can add the two together. He stopped pitching in June, then didn't pitch in the AFL until October. He threw 142 at Arizona State. That is the target number I would go with as for what he threw last year.
    And lets not forget he had elbow tendinitis with that workload at the end of his college season. I'm for letting him pitch out of the pen at some point not sure when is the right time but the Verducci guidelines seem to be a good set of guidelines. So let him get IDK 135 innings as a starter and then move him to the pen for 30 or so.
    Last edited by Mario-Rijo; 06-20-2010 at 03:27 PM.
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    Re: John Erardi article: When will Reds shut down Mike Leake?

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    Or you shut him down when his innings reach a certain point. I'm not for putting Leake in the pen either FWIW, but you can't push him into the danger zone simply because the team is in contention. Kid is 22.
    Is there any precedent for a team in contention behaving this way?

    You read the same thing with respect to Chapman. Teams just don't behave this way. We can talk about self interest and hold our breath till we're blue in the face ......team just don't behave this way.
    "Even a bad day at the ballpark beats the snot out of most other good days. I'll take my scorecard and pencil and beer and hot dog and rage at the dips and cheer at the highs, but I'm not ever going to stop loving this game and this team and nobody will ever take that away from me." Roy Tucker October 2010

  6. #20
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: John Erardi article: When will Reds shut down Mike Leake?

    Quote Originally Posted by dfs View Post
    Is there any precedent for a team in contention behaving this way?

    You read the same thing with respect to Chapman. Teams just don't behave this way. We can talk about self interest and hold our breath till we're blue in the face ......team just don't behave this way.
    Joba Chamberlin?
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  7. #21
    Member membengal's Avatar
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    Re: John Erardi article: When will Reds shut down Mike Leake?

    Yes, Chamberlain.

    And, the Yankees pitched Phil Hughes out of the pen last year too on their World Series winning team.

    The Cardinals with Wainwright when they won the World Series. The Red Sox and how they broke in Bucholz? Johan Santana spent time in the pen before he became a starter in Minnesota.

    Maybe those are not exact parallels, but I think the notion of limiting innings for young starters is not a foreign notion at any rate.

    ETA: Does how the Reds used Mario Soto in 1979 for their Division winner count?

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...sotoma01.shtml
    Last edited by membengal; 06-20-2010 at 09:13 PM.

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    Re: John Erardi article: When will Reds shut down Mike Leake?

    Quote Originally Posted by membengal View Post
    Yes, Chamberlain.

    And, the Yankees pitched Phil Hughes out of the pen last year too on their World Series winning team.

    The Cardinals with Wainwright when they won the World Series. The Red Sox and how they broke in Bucholz? Johan Santana spent time in the pen before he became a starter in Minnesota.
    But aren't those all examples of a contending team with a full rotation finding a high leverage use for a young arm in the bullpen?

    Isn't that very different than taking a young guy out of the rotation and shutting him down?
    "Even a bad day at the ballpark beats the snot out of most other good days. I'll take my scorecard and pencil and beer and hot dog and rage at the dips and cheer at the highs, but I'm not ever going to stop loving this game and this team and nobody will ever take that away from me." Roy Tucker October 2010

  9. #23
    Reds Slacker '07 RedsMan3203's Avatar
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    Re: John Erardi article: When will Reds shut down Mike Leake?

    An update from Baker on Leake

    m_sheldon
    One thing I didn't put in blog was Baker on Leake. "This is uncharted territory he’s about to enter in right now. We’re going to skip him a few times and help him stay strong. He trains hard. He’s one of the first guys out here every day.”
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  10. #24
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: John Erardi article: When will Reds shut down Mike Leake?

    This will probably sound dirty, but I wonder if the Reds will skip Leake right before the All Star break and send him down to AAA for two weeks while Volquez takes his spot. It won't be enough to avoid Super 2, but it would delay Free Agency for a year.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  11. #25
    Member Superdude's Avatar
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    Re: John Erardi article: When will Reds shut down Mike Leake?

    This will probably sound dirty, but I wonder if the Reds will skip Leake right before the All Star break and send him down to AAA for two weeks while Volquez takes his spot. It won't be enough to avoid Super 2, but it would delay Free Agency for a year.
    Leake doesn't seem like the greedy type, so keeping a good relationship with him might be important if we want to re-sign him eventually. Finding a loophole to potentially rip him out of cash is probably not the best way to to do that. Just another thought.

  12. #26
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: John Erardi article: When will Reds shut down Mike Leake?

    Quote Originally Posted by Superdude View Post
    Leake doesn't seem like the greedy type, so keeping a good relationship with him might be important if we want to re-sign him eventually. Finding a loophole to potentially rip him out of cash is probably not the best way to to do that. Just another thought.
    I agree, but nothing a major league team does or could do surprises me.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  13. #27
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: John Erardi article: When will Reds shut down Mike Leake?

    Quote Originally Posted by Superdude View Post
    Leake doesn't seem like the greedy type, so keeping a good relationship with him might be important if we want to re-sign him eventually. Finding a loophole to potentially rip him out of cash is probably not the best way to to do that. Just another thought.

    The Players Association would file a grievance so fast on this that it would make your head spin.
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    Re: John Erardi article: When will Reds shut down Mike Leake?

    Yanks are skipping Phil Hughes this week to keep his innings down. He's pitching well and they're in a three-team race for the division lead. Reds, take note.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  15. #29
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: John Erardi article: When will Reds shut down Mike Leake?

    I think the Reds are doing the right thing.

    Limit his workload on each start. Occasionally give him an extra day of rest, etc.

    If they continue to do this, I have no problem at all with letting Leake stay in the rotation for the last 3 weeks of the season. As long as he's healthy and has not hit the wall yet.

    The college season is much shorter than the pro season. Those innings are getting spread out over a longer period of time. The Reds are pretty much limiting him to 100 pitches every time out. They are treating him with kid gloves.

    I agree, if he's pitching this well in the last month of the season, with no signs of fatigue, there's no team in baseball that would shut him down.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

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  16. #30
    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
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    Re: John Erardi article: When will Reds shut down Mike Leake?

    The Reds must take care of their young arms.

    It would be inexcusable to risk Leaks future for the chance at a few more wins this season.


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