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Thread: Joe Sheehan isn't a fan of Dusty Baker.

  1. #1
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Joe Sheehan isn't a fan of Dusty Baker.

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...ssa/index.html

    Where they do not have an edge is in the dugout. Dusty Baker has a long-standing reputation as a leader of men, a baseball manager whose tactical shortcomings are compensated for by his people skills. A closer look, though, shows that Baker's success as a manager seems to have been tied directly to the ability to write Barry Bonds' name on the lineup card every day. Since leaving Bonds and the Giants after 2002, Baker has a 513-531 record and has managed one team, the 2003 Cubs, to a postseason berth, and he burned out two pitchers in the process. In his last seven seasons as a manager, Baker's questionable personnel choices, including an abiding love for veterans, and his refusal to prioritize on-base percentage over other traits, have chipped away at his team's performances. Whether it was burying Matt Murton and Hee Seop Choi on the bench in Chicago, or giving away runs by leading off such OBP nightmares as Corey Patterson and Orlando Cabrera, or famously overworking Mark Prior and Kerry Wood, Baker has repeatedly made poor choices since leaving San Francisco, where he at least had Bonds' greatness to paper over his mistakes.
    IMO it was a hack job of an article but will create discussion non the less. Sheehan basically says the Reds are a surprise team, will be contending all year long, but Dusty Baker still sucks. Nice job Joe!

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    Re: Joe Sheehan isn't a fan of Dusty Baker.

    Nothing like trotting out all those false asumptions and wrong-headed ideas.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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    We Need Our Myths reds1869's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Sheehan isn't a fan of Dusty Baker.

    "Burned out two pitchers in the process."

    I am getting incredibly sick of that topic.


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    It's showtime! RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Sheehan isn't a fan of Dusty Baker.

    Favors vets? Perhaps with Murton and Choi, but they haven't turned into anything since anyway. With the Reds, Dusty has advanced the careers of Votto, Bruce and Stubbs by sticking with them over vet options when they came up. I think this assumption has been proven false.

    Burns up arms? Again, in Chicago you can make the case he did. But Wood was likely a ticking time bomb anyway, and Prior's mechanics were more questionable than anyone first thought. Baker did use those guys a lot, but he was also embroiled in a pennant race with no bullpen to speak of. Sort of a catch-22 if you ask me. With the Reds, I've liked the way he's handled Leake and some of the other pitchers for the most part. If nothing else he seems to be learning from his mistakes.

    Leads off low-OBP guys? That's a tough one to deny, even during his time with Cincy. Corey Patterson, Willy Taveras, now Orlando Cabrera... all of these guys have been Dusty's choices. Overall, you could make the case that he is now doing better with lineup construction than he was previously (in fact, moving Rolen to 4 and Phillips to 2 looks like a master stroke right now). But the point of the leadoff spot, IMO, continues to be a blind spot for Dusty.
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

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    Please come again pedro's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Sheehan isn't a fan of Dusty Baker.

    I'm not really a fan of Joe Sheehan or BP anymore really.

    I've stopped subscribing as their main business seems to be self promotion and patting themselves on the back.
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    Socratic Gadfly TheNext44's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Sheehan isn't a fan of Dusty Baker.

    If I were a Mod I would close this thread for no other reason than my belief that The writer of this piece is not a credible source nor a talented writer.

    Everything he writes is a hack job because he is not capable of writing anythiig else. How this clown still has a job is beyond me.
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

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    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Sheehan isn't a fan of Dusty Baker.

    Hee Seop Choi is Korean for Roberto Petagine is it not?

    Sheehan has never been my favorite at BP (which I dropped because all the GOOD writers split)

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    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Sheehan isn't a fan of Dusty Baker.

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    Leads off low-OBP guys? That's a tough one to deny, even during his time with Cincy. Corey Patterson, Willy Taveras, now Orlando Cabrera... all of these guys have been Dusty's choices. Overall, you could make the case that he is now doing better with lineup construction than he was previously (in fact, moving Rolen to 4 and Phillips to 2 looks like a master stroke right now). But the point of the leadoff spot, IMO, continues to be a blind spot for Dusty.
    Not that I disagree with this assessment, but........... the options he had weren't the best. I mean its not like he buried Rickey Henderson 7th in the lineup or anything.

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    Re: Joe Sheehan isn't a fan of Dusty Baker.

    I put full blame of Mark Prior on Dusty. Kerry Wood, not so much. He had already been on the operating table well before Dusty showed up as his manager. I am not sure anyone can argue the leadoff angle. Dusty isn't the only guy around who doesn't quite get good OBP and slow is better than fast and on the bench though.

  11. #10
    Tired of talk. Win! Joseph's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Sheehan isn't a fan of Dusty Baker.

    Quote Originally Posted by pedro View Post
    I'm not really a fan of Joe Sheehan or BP anymore really.

    I've stopped subscribing as their main business seems to be self promotion and patting themselves on the back.
    Good point. Kind of like that episode of South Park a few seasons back where everyone liked the smell of their own farts.

    As to the article specifically, the Bonds argument [one I've probably made myself in the past] is also a tired one. It's very rare in sports that you can write ONE name on a lineup and know you are going to win more often than not. Bonds wasn't a pitcher and even if he hit a home run each time up they still would have stunk up the joint without some solid pitchers in the late 90's and early 00's. Russ Ortiz, Kirk Rueter [go MSU!], Livan Hernandez, Jason Schmidt etc etc etc.

    Dusty isn't Connie Mack, but he's not Vern Rapp either.

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    Please come again pedro's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Sheehan isn't a fan of Dusty Baker.

    Not denying that Dusty worked him hard but Mark Prior's mechanics gave him a very high chance of injury regardless of who his manager was.
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    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Sheehan isn't a fan of Dusty Baker.

    Everybody knows my feelings towards Baker and I even I found that a bit aggressive and poorly supported. I wonder if there was a longer article there that the SI editors chopped down.

    His concerns are reasonable, but he either should have gone in to greater detail about the specific decisions Dusty has made this year, how they threaten our chances to compete, and the alternatives he would suggest OR have just made it a straight attacked piece and be done with it.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  14. #13
    It's showtime! RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Sheehan isn't a fan of Dusty Baker.

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    Not that I disagree with this assessment, but........... the options he had weren't the best. I mean its not like he buried Rickey Henderson 7th in the lineup or anything.
    True. I suppose it would be too much to ask for a conventional manager like Dusty to break the mold ŗ la the Rays and lead-off someone like Hanigan or Rolen. Heck, Hanigan doesn't even play enough when he's healthy, and Rolen just recently moved to cleanup.

    Still, I have to think other managers would get more fidgety or innovative when their leadoff guy is OBP-ing under .300. Dusty doesn't seem to bat an eyelash at that situation--hence the current edition of the Reds ALWAYS has an out machine at the top of the order.
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

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    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Sheehan isn't a fan of Dusty Baker.

    Quote Originally Posted by pedro View Post
    Not denying that Dusty worked him hard but Mark Prior's mechanics gave him a very high chance of injury regardless of who his manager was.
    Yes they did... but throwing him 115+ pitches 15+ times in the same season, sometimes in games that were clearly in hand is on the manager.

    Here is the game by game pitch count for Prior, including the playoffs, in 2003. Note how the trend keeps going up and up? Yeah, that isn't good at all.
    Last edited by dougdirt; 06-24-2010 at 04:39 PM.

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    Socratic Gadfly TheNext44's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Sheehan isn't a fan of Dusty Baker.

    No matter Prior's mechanic's Dusty did over use him. Can't deny that. And Dusty does like to over use arms, but Prior's really was the only young one that he over used. He was just as cautious as most managers his whole managerial career with other young arms.

    But the Bonds argument just doesn't hold water. From 1993 to 2000, there were around a dozen of players in the league that were Bond's equal or very close. And their teams didn't always win.
    It really wasn't until 2001 that Bonds became a one man team, head and shoulders above everyone else. And Dusty only had him for two of those years.
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