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Thread: It still amazes me sometimes

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    It still amazes me sometimes

    I know that the Reds system isn't necessarily that highly regarded still by some "experts," but I swear, in my 45 years of serious Reds fandom I can't recall a time where this system was as deep in prospects - both pitching and positional.

    I was so pesimistic just a few short years ago - there wasn't really that much talent on the big league club and precious little on the farm too. I must admit, the turnaround has been impressive and I think BCast and the three GMs that have served under him deserve a ton of credit.

    The five areas that give me the most hope for the future:

    1. The strong core of young players already contributing on the Major League level. It not only has led to improved on-field performance, but is allowing a steady stockpile of talented youngsters behind them.

    2. The Latin Invasion. The improved latin scouting and signing of talent is accelerating the improvement of the system. Flashy signings like Chapman, Yorman, Duran, Valor, etc. are certainly helping, but the lesser lights coming out of the VSL and DSL programs shouldn't be discounted either. Best part is, we're just seeing the tip of the iceburg. Three or four seasons from now it may just be amazing .

    3. Depth/Versatility. The last few years, the Big Club has shown some spurts, but somehow you were never really convinced. You had your doubts. There wasn't the depth to fill-in for injuries or to push a slumping/under-producing player. You also knew (though most of us wouldn't admit it) there weren't that many players that other teams might want - guys that could be used as trading chips to fill glaring holes. Its amazing to think that we could consider a package that includes names like Alonzo, Bailey/Wood, Heisey, etc. for a single pitcher without fear of setting the system back for 2 or 3 years. I'm starting to see depth that will allow the franchise to build something sustainable, not just a flash-in-the-pan pretender for a season or two.

    4. Addressing areas of need. For two long, this club has had areas that stood out like sore thumbs - especially starting pitching, Middle Infielders and catchers. The increased depth when it comes to starters is obvious. While a TOR-type guy is always welcome, I can honestly say that the Reds have never been a deep in quality, home-grown starters at the major league and high-minor level. The emergence of Mesoraco and the drafting of Grandal combined with a surprisingly serviceable young vet like Hanigan and some of the other lesser-touted young catchers have the future at this position looking much brighter. With Valaika, Cozart, Puckett, Rojas, HRod, Gregorius, Hamilton, Arias, Valor, etc. we're starting to see some home grown MI's that could possibly contribute some with their bat as well as their glove. If you can build quality surplusses at SP, SS & C you can always make a deal to fill other needs.

    5. The renewed empasis. Improved scouting, development, drafting, spending and a much more aggressive attitude toward foreign talent beds has almost brought a full recovery from the neglect that was the Schott/Lindner/Bowden era. i could quibble (more emphasis on OPS, a few more of Pants 5-tool OFs...), but I won't. I have to give Kudos to BCast, Jocketty, Krivsky, O'Brien and all of their subordinants that have also played huge roles in the turnaround. Lord knows I've given them enough grief over the past decade.
    Last edited by corkedbat; 07-02-2010 at 11:47 PM.

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    All work and no play..... Vottomatic's Avatar
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    Re: It still amazes me sometimes

    Agreed. Hats off to Bob Castellini. I've been very critical at times, also, but they've done it the right way.

    40% of our 25 man roster was drafted and developed by the Reds:
    Votto, Bruce, Stubbs, Heisey, Dickerson (DL), Janish, Hanigan (DL), Bailey (DL), Cueto, Wood (just called up), Mike Leake, Ondrusek, Jordan Smith, Corky Miller (originally signed by Reds as undrafted free agent). 14 players with 3 on the disabled list.

    And the trades have been so lopsided in our favor, it really deserves some praise to Jocketty and even Krivsky and O'Brien.

    Phillips for a bucket of balls.
    Arroyo for Willy Mo Pena.
    Hernandez for a now retired Ryan Freel.
    Rolen for EE and Zach Stewart.
    Masset for an aging KGJ.
    Owings for Adam Dunn heading into free agency.
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

    "Man do I miss the days where were didn't need a calculator and an encyclopedia of baseball metrics to enjoy a baseball game ... - MikeS21" - 8/2/12 game thread

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    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: It still amazes me sometimes

    Quote Originally Posted by Vottomatic View Post
    Agreed. Hats off to Bob Castellini. I've been very critical at times, also, but they've done it the right way.

    40% of our 25 man roster was drafted and developed by the Reds:
    Votto, Bruce, Stubbs, Heisey, Dickerson (DL), Janish, Hanigan (DL), Bailey (DL), Cueto, Wood (just called up), Mike Leake, Ondrusek, Jordan Smith, Corky Miller (originally signed by Reds as undrafted free agent). 14 players with 3 on the disabled list.

    And the trades have been so lopsided in our favor, it really deserves some praise to Jocketty and even Krivsky and O'Brien.

    Phillips for a bucket of balls.
    Arroyo for Willy Mo Pena.
    Hernandez for a now retired Ryan Freel.
    Rolen for EE and Zach Stewart.
    Masset for an aging KGJ.
    Owings for Adam Dunn heading into free agency.
    To be fair, Phillips was gotten for a future major leaguer. That is a bit more than a bucket of balls.

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    All work and no play..... Vottomatic's Avatar
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    Re: It still amazes me sometimes

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    To be fair, Phillips was gotten for a future major leaguer. That is a bit more than a bucket of balls.
    Phillips was acquired in trade from Cleveland for 2006 Reds draft pick Jeff Stevens.

    Jeff Stevens has appeared in 27 games between 2009 and the 2010 seasons, posting a 5.10 ERA and a 1.50 WHIP for the Cubs. Stevens ended up being traded with 2 other players to the Cubs on December 31st, 2008 for Mark Derosa.

    The Reds have gotten 1000% more out of that trade than Cleveland or the Cubs have.

    I would equate that as a bucket of balls.
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

    "Man do I miss the days where were didn't need a calculator and an encyclopedia of baseball metrics to enjoy a baseball game ... - MikeS21" - 8/2/12 game thread

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    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: It still amazes me sometimes

    Quote Originally Posted by Vottomatic View Post
    Phillips was acquired in trade from Cleveland for 2006 Reds draft pick Jeff Stevens.

    Jeff Stevens has appeared in 27 games between 2009 and the 2010 seasons, posting a 5.10 ERA and a 1.50 WHIP for the Cubs. Stevens ended up being traded with 2 other players to the Cubs on December 31st, 2008 for Mark Derosa.

    The Reds have gotten 1000% more out of that trade than Cleveland or the Cubs have.

    I would equate that as a bucket of balls.
    A major leaguer, even a bad one (which Steven's certainly isn't), is more than a bucket of balls. Stevens is also posting solid numbers in a limited sample so far this season for the Cubs. I expect more seasons moving forward like this one than 2009 in his rookie year. He has good stuff.

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    SERP deep cover ops WebScorpion's Avatar
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    Re: It still amazes me sometimes

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    A major leaguer, even a bad one (which Steven's certainly isn't), is more than a bucket of balls. Stevens is also posting solid numbers in a limited sample so far this season for the Cubs. I expect more seasons moving forward like this one than 2009 in his rookie year. He has good stuff.
    Of course, the day after you posted this he faced 6 Reds batters, walked 3 and gave up 3 hits, two of them homers...he was pulled mercifully after retiring noone. The following day he was optioned to AAA Iowa. He WAS a Major League pitcher. That said, I'm sure he hasn't used his last chance yet.
    Last edited by WebScorpion; 07-06-2010 at 05:11 AM.

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    Re: It still amazes me sometimes

    I think you will see the Reds rating go up this year as a number of prospects have had really good years.

    Also remember that the ratings are based on existing prospects, and teams that graduate a number of propsetcs (like we have) get downgraded.

    The rating is not done based on what you have done, it's simply a reflection of what you have left in the system.

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    Re: It still amazes me sometimes

    For everyone who has had a big year there are top guys who have had worse.

    Wood might move up if he doesnt get a ton of innings in the majors.
    Mes is looking like top 50 at least.
    Joseph wont make a top 100 list but hes looking like one of the better minor league arms in the whole minors.
    Yorman is still producing very well.
    The Reds do have a lot of that talent people can gush over, but ultimately it is the "scouting" hype and not the results hype.

    That being said unless Yonder and Frazier have major season turn arounds those guys are going to drop some. Yonder might not drop as much because hes been basically rehabing a hand injury, but Frazier certainly wont get as much of a benefit of the doubt.

  10. #9
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    Re: It still amazes me sometimes

    Alonso's slash line in the last ten games is .372/.386/.682/1.014. So it seems he is turning things around. Ditto Todd Frazier whose slash line for his last ten games reads out like this - .294/.368/.706/1.074.

    Alonso has stopped taking walks it seems. One walk in his last ten games. In 31 AA games (approx 120 PA) he walked 19 times and struck out 16. In 53 AAA games (approx 230 PA) he walked only 11 times and struck out 39).

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    Re: It still amazes me sometimes

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    I think you will see the Reds rating go up this year as a number of prospects have had really good years.

    Also remember that the ratings are based on existing prospects, and teams that graduate a number of propsetcs (like we have) get downgraded.

    The rating is not done based on what you have done, it's simply a reflection of what you have left in the system.
    It's pretty obvious that all these so-called ratings and "anal"-ysts have gotten it wrong when it came to the Reds minor leagues and prospect ratings.

    Reds are currently the #1 offense in the national league with 40% of their roster coming from their farm system/draft. How about them apples?

    1B Votto
    SS (backup) Janish
    LF Heisey / Dickerson
    CF Stubbs
    RF Bruce
    C Hanigan / (backup) Corky Miller
    SP Leake
    SP Cueto
    SP Bailey
    SP Wood
    RP Ondrusek
    RP Smith

    Rankings mean squat.
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

    "Man do I miss the days where were didn't need a calculator and an encyclopedia of baseball metrics to enjoy a baseball game ... - MikeS21" - 8/2/12 game thread

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    All work and no play..... Vottomatic's Avatar
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    Re: It still amazes me sometimes

    Quote Originally Posted by WebScorpion View Post
    Of course, the day after you posted this he faced 6 Reds batters, walked 3 and gave up 3 hits, two of them homers...he was pulled mercifully after retiring noone. The following day he was optioned to AAA Iowa. He WAS a Major League pitcher. That said, I'm sure he hasn't used his last chance yet.
    Yeah, I was thinking about that and having a good laugh.

    I kept expecting to look at the mound when Stevens was pitching and seeing a bucket with balls in it instead of him.
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

    "Man do I miss the days where were didn't need a calculator and an encyclopedia of baseball metrics to enjoy a baseball game ... - MikeS21" - 8/2/12 game thread

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    Re: It still amazes me sometimes

    Quote Originally Posted by Vottomatic View Post
    Yeah, I was thinking about that and having a good laugh.

    I kept expecting to look at the mound when Stevens was pitching and seeing a bucket with balls in it instead of him.
    It would have been an empty bucket of balls because most of the ones originally in it had left the stadium.

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    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: It still amazes me sometimes

    Quote Originally Posted by WebScorpion View Post
    Of course, the day after you posted this he faced 6 Reds batters, walked 3 and gave up 3 hits, two of them homers...he was pulled mercifully after retiring noone. The following day he was optioned to AAA Iowa. He WAS a Major League pitcher. That said, I'm sure he hasn't used his last chance yet.
    Jeff Stevens and his entire family probably hate me lol. I think that he is going to spend multiple years in the majors. His stuff is good. For the most part he can throw strikes too.


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