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Thread: Outfield Help?

  1. #16
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Outfield Help?

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    Why would a rebuilding Mariners team want a guy like Pagan who turns 30 in 2011? Seem like the Mets would be after Lee and the Mariners would probably want Younger guys. Josh Thole, Chirs Carter and Wilmer Flores would be a good package.
    Because Pagan would be perfect for them, they'd get something else from the Mets too and the Ms aren't rebuilding in the sense you're suggesting.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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  3. #17
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    Re: Outfield Help?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Seriously? If Jocketty decided Markakis was the key for the playoffs, what Reds players would be sufficient to get him?
    I choose not to engage you on this. Thanks.

  4. #18
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Outfield Help?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Because Pagan would be perfect for them, they'd get something else from the Mets too and the Ms aren't rebuilding in the sense you're suggesting.
    They have no legit middle of the order bats. Teams that can't hit in the 3, 4, and 5 holes or don't have a legitimate complement of starting pitchers (with Lee and Bedard likely gone after this year its pretty ugly after King Felix) are rebuilding. The M's need to use their chips to get pitching and power IMO. Its why a Wood/Alonso package would look good to them.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  5. #19
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    Re: Outfield Help?

    *Alex Gordon*

    He could platoon with Gomes in LF and spell Rolen occasionally without losing as much offense in the lineup. Also he would be insurance in the event that Rolen has to miss any time with an injury. Off the bench, he can provide just as much pop as Laynce Nix while reaching base more. Lastly, consider the fact that he would be under team control for awhile which fits more towards the philosophy of being competitive beyond just this season.

    I think he would be the perfect target for the Reds if he could be had from KC.

  6. #20
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Outfield Help?

    Quote Originally Posted by Orenda View Post
    *Alex Gordon*

    He could platoon with Gomes in LF and spell Rolen occasionally without losing as much offense in the lineup. Also he would be insurance in the event that Rolen has to miss any time with an injury. Off the bench, he can provide just as much pop as Laynce Nix while reaching base more. Lastly, consider the fact that he would be under team control for awhile which fits more towards the philosophy of being competitive beyond just this season.

    I think he would be the perfect target for the Reds if he could be had from KC.
    Love this idea. I'd like to get somebody who can play CF, but would love to get Gordon on the cheap as well.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  7. #21
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    Re: Outfield Help?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    If Pagan gets moved, it'll probably be to Seattle.

    Wouldn't Josh Hamilton have looked good in left this year?

    Since the trade, he's basically doubled Volquez' WAR and produced roughly $38M worth of surplus value to Volquez's $20M...
    Thanks for the useful data on a trade some of us never liked. Simplest way to avoid compounding the mistake is, IMHO, to offer the M's Volquez straight up for Lee. That is, if we must have Lee, which I doubt.

  8. #22
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Outfield Help?

    Volquez will be coming back and providing the Reds a legit rotation arm while Hamilton has been replaced with more than adequate production. As the team contends the combo of Volquez and lesser OF is better to have than Hamilton and some ham and egger in the rotation. I'd make the Hamilton for Volquez deal 100 times out of 100. The Reds made the right move IMO.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  9. #23
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Outfield Help?

    MLB Trade Rumor suggests that the Marlins might be making Cody Ross available. He's not a guy I'd give up a lot for but is another guy who might make sense if the Reds were to deal Heisey. The Marlins are said to be looking for help in the pen. I Wonder if Burton and Fisher along with a lower level guy like a Sulbaran would interest them.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  10. #24
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Outfield Help?

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    They have no legit middle of the order bats. Teams that can't hit in the 3, 4, and 5 holes or don't have a legitimate complement of starting pitchers (with Lee and Bedard likely gone after this year its pretty ugly after King Felix) are rebuilding.
    Bedard is probably likely going to stay in Seattle and Pineda will probably be in the rotation too. They have a gaggle to fight for the remaining two spots.

    Pagan/Flores makes a lot of sense for their organization. They certainly don't HAVE to make Bavasi cookies by doggedly looking to cookie cutter elements-i.e. sock for the 4th spot... pitcher type X for spot Y.

    Their current team is better talent-wise than its record too.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  11. #25
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Outfield Help?

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    Volquez will be coming back and providing the Reds a legit rotation arm while Hamilton has been replaced with more than adequate production. As the team contends the combo of Volquez and lesser OF is better to have than Hamilton and some ham and egger in the rotation. I'd make the Hamilton for Volquez deal 100 times out of 100. The Reds made the right move IMO.
    Hopefully you're right about Volquez but he's a question mark and Gomes isn't even half of Hamilton.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Outfield Help?

    Quote Originally Posted by HokieRed View Post
    Thanks for the useful data on a trade some of us never liked. Simplest way to avoid compounding the mistake is, IMHO, to offer the M's Volquez straight up for Lee. That is, if we must have Lee, which I doubt.
    I wouldn't do that from a Reds standpoint.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: Outfield Help?

    Wigington was the name I liked from that list as a fourth OF/ corner IF. (He'd take ABs away from Cairo, Nix, and Heisey and will probably outproduce all of them this year.)

    But then I saw Gordon. He could do the same at less cost and under team control. (Less cost in prospects too, I'm assuming.)

    Would KC agree to a Francsico for Gordon deal? He seems like a KC player, in that he's BA driven and allergic to BBs, for the most part. He profiles as a 3B Jose Guillen and that has some serious value. (If he struggles to play the hot corner, both LF and DH spots would be available as well.)
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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  14. #28
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Outfield Help?

    alex gordon is in baseball purgatory and the hands controlling his fate are erratic...he's a gamble for a stretch run too. The Reds need an upgrade they can put in the bank this season.

    Josh Willingham might fit that description.

    Dang it though. The Sox gave away Swisher. He's look good in left too.
    Last edited by jojo; 07-04-2010 at 11:29 AM.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  15. #29
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Outfield Help?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Bedard is probably likely going to stay in Seattle and Pineda will probably be in the rotation too. They have a gaggle to fight for the remaining two spots.

    Pagan/Flores makes a lot of sense for their organization. They certainly don't HAVE to make Bavasi cookies by doggedly looking to cookie cutter elements-i.e. sock for the 4th spot... pitcher type X for spot Y.

    Their current team is better talent-wise than its record too.
    Perhaps the M's would like Chris Dickerson in a deal for Lee. 30ish, decent defender, gets on base, his injury shouldn't impact 2011. If they would take him instead of a younger player, I think everyone in Redsland would get behind it.

    As for the sock element, they had a chance to destroy the AL West this year had they gone and gotten a legit middle of the order bat. I know most don't believe that these players are on a team any more and that the strengths of one has impact on others, but its still true no matter how hard we try to calculate hypothetical, individual run values for everything. The M's tried to get too cute with the alternate route and left themsleves short IMO. Getting great value is something I'm all for, but there has to be a legitimate core of production to build it around. A guy like Pagan is a great guy to have on a team as one of the supporting cast members, but if I'm dealing Lee, I want potential lead actors. Flores certainly might qualify.
    Last edited by mth123; 07-04-2010 at 11:36 AM.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  16. #30
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Outfield Help?

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    Perhaps the M's would like Chris Dickerson in a deal for Lee. 30ish, decent defender, gets on base, his injury shouldn't impact 2011. If they would take him instead of a younger player, I think everyone in Redsland would get behind it.
    I'd be surprised if Z and Jocketty haven't talked about Dickerson if they've talked since Z took over the Ms FO.

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    The M's tried to get too cute with the alternate route and left themsleves short IMO. Getting great value is something I'm all for, but there has to be a legitimate core of production to build it around. A guy like Pagan is a great guy to have on a team as one of the supporting cast members, but if I'm dealing Lee, I want potential lead actors. Flores certainly might qualify.
    Really how many impact bats did the Ms pass on? Vlad would've been a great answer at DH but Jr was an edict passed down from on high and also, Z had a budget limit too.

    It might look like Z had a drive going and enigmatically ran out of bounds before crossing the goal line but what he did was build a roster that looked like a 85 win team under some constraints from ownership that limited his ability to maneuver. So the Ms were built on paper to play within striking distance which would've given Z leverage for July moves but the roster also had zero margin of error and no flexibility from the bench. Then everything that could've went wrong did including injuries to key players and half of the lineup starting out in career worst slumps.

    I don't think Z was being too cute at all.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner


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