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Thread: Joey Votto Superstar?

  1. #31
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto Superstar?

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    I think the one true difference between Votto and Pujols is the strike outs. I think if Votto ever cuts back on the K's then he will be in Pujols territory. After seeing last year and the first half of this season I have little doubt that Votto has the sustainability to be a great offensive player in baseball for a number of years.
    Why would he need to reduce his strikeouts? Pujols strikes out less, but is making more outs than Votto this year.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

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  3. #32
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto Superstar?

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool View Post
    Why would he need to reduce his strikeouts? Pujols strikes out less, but is making more outs than Votto this year.
    I am basically saying when you compare the two it is really the one thing that separates Pujols from Votto. Sure Votto has Pujols by a .418 to .413 margin but you are basically splitting hairs. Pujols' numbers are a little off from his career norm and I think the strike out rate is the one thing that Pujols does better than Votto at this stage in their careers.

  4. #33
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto Superstar?

    Quote Originally Posted by Playadlc View Post
    Yes.

    I mean, isn't Joey Votto the NL MVP if we vote today?

    -Leader in OPS
    -Leader in HR
    -Tied 4th in RBI
    -Hitting .318, 4th in league

    and he even has 7 steals!

    And, oh ya, the Reds are in 1st place.
    NL MVP...and not on the all star team.
    Yes, that has been done before. Kirk Gibson was the 1988 NL MVP and never made an all star team, not in 1988 and not ever in his major league career.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

  5. #34
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto Superstar?

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    I am basically saying when you compare the two it is really the one thing that separates Pujols from Votto. Sure Votto has Pujols by a .418 to .413 margin but you are basically splitting hairs. Pujols' numbers are a little off from his career norm and I think the strike out rate is the one thing that Pujols does better than Votto at this stage in their careers.
    And yet, the K difference actually means very little as Pujols is making other outs. And more of them.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  6. #35
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto Superstar?

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    And yet, the K difference actually means very little as Pujols is making other outs. And more of them.
    This year Pujols has probably made one or two more outs, really not a big deal. In most years this is what separates Votto from Pujols.

    I know there are many people who subscribe to the belief that a K is just an out. I am not one of them.

  7. #36
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto Superstar?

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    This year Pujols has probably made one or two more outs, really not a big deal. In most years this is what separates Votto from Pujols.

    I know there are many people who subscribe to the belief that a K is just an out. I am not one of them.
    I am. a K is just an out. that's it.

    With nobody on, A K is just another out.

    With a man on 1st, It's just an out. occasionally a GB will advance the runner to 2B.

    A K is worse only if there is less than 2 out and the runner(s) are on 2nd or 3rd. That's it. But that topic has been beat to death.

    Votto's numbers with runners on are actually better than Pujols this year.
    Code:
    Votto:  .356 .466 .705 1.171 50 RBI
    Pujols: .341 .482 .611 1.093 49 RBI
    With Runners in scoring position, edge to Pujols:
    Code:
    Votto:  .311 .442 .622 1.064 34 RBI
    Pujols: .356 .533 .630 1.163 39 RBI
    Seems like Pujols is just a west of the Mississippi version of Votto to me.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  8. #37
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto Superstar?

    People throw superstar around so casually these days. Is anybody just a star? Derek Jeter is a superstar. Ken Griffey Jr. was a superstar. Superstars are not just elite performers within their sport but are well established elite performers who have become socially relevant.

    Votto is a star has the talent to stay a star for a long time. But he's got a long way to go before we can begin to talk superstar.

    I don't think there's been a superstar Red since Pete. Larkin was a star. Davis was a star. Chad Johnson is probably the closest thing the city has to a superstar right now.

    But that's just my perspective.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  9. #38
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto Superstar?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    People throw superstar around so casually these days. Is anybody just a star? Derek Jeter is a superstar. Ken Griffey Jr. was a superstar. Superstars are not just elite performers within their sport but are well established elite performers who have become socially relevant.

    Votto is a star has the talent to stay a star for a long time. But he's got a long way to go before we can begin to talk superstar.

    I don't think there's been a superstar Red since Pete. Larkin was a star. Davis was a star. Chad Johnson is probably the closest thing the city has to a superstar right now.

    But that's just my perspective.

    in terms of fame? spot on. Ability? he's a superstar. Temperment? He's a star, and I think he prefers it that way.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  10. #39
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto Superstar?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    People throw superstar around so casually these days. Is anybody just a star? Derek Jeter is a superstar. Ken Griffey Jr. was a superstar. Superstars are not just elite performers within their sport but are well established elite performers who have become socially relevant.

    Votto is a star has the talent to stay a star for a long time. But he's got a long way to go before we can begin to talk superstar.

    I don't think there's been a superstar Red since Pete. Larkin was a star. Davis was a star. Chad Johnson is probably the closest thing the city has to a superstar right now.

    But that's just my perspective.
    Was Pete a superstar?

    I'd say no, he was BIG star, but Bench was the superstar.

  11. #40
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto Superstar?

    Rose was a superstar.
    To me, a superstar is a player of future Hall of Fame caliber, which Rose clearly was. In the 1970s the three players who had the highest Win Share totals for the decade were Morgan, Bench and Rose, and the Reds had 'em all.
    Right now I would call Albert Pujols a superstar; he is a former MVP and clearly of HOF caliber. Joey Votto at the moment I would call a star--if he performs at his 2010 level for several seasons I would then call him a superstar.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

  12. #41
    Hey Cubs Fans RFS62's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto Superstar?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron View Post
    Rose was a superstar.
    To me, a superstar is a player of future Hall of Fame caliber, which Rose clearly was. In the 1970s the three players who had the highest Win Share totals for the decade were Morgan, Bench and Rose, and the Reds had 'em all.
    Right now I would call Albert Pujols a superstar; he is a former MVP and clearly of HOF caliber. Joey Votto at the moment I would call a star--if he performs at his 2010 level for several seasons I would then call him a superstar.

    Yeah, I have to agree.
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
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  13. #42
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto Superstar?

    Pete Rose.

    Aqua Velva.

    Superstar.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  14. #43
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto Superstar?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron View Post
    Rose was a superstar.
    To me, a superstar is a player of future Hall of Fame caliber, which Rose clearly was. In the 1970s the three players who had the highest Win Share totals for the decade were Morgan, Bench and Rose, and the Reds had 'em all.
    Right now I would call Albert Pujols a superstar; he is a former MVP and clearly of HOF caliber. Joey Votto at the moment I would call a star--if he performs at his 2010 level for several seasons I would then call him a superstar.

    Ok, Pete was a superstar in retrospect, but it did take him longer to get there (Morgan too) JB was a superstar like Albert, pretty much right out of the gate.

  15. #44
    Hey Cubs Fans RFS62's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto Superstar?

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Ok, Pete was a superstar in retrospect, but it did take him longer to get there (Morgan too) JB was a superstar like Albert, pretty much right out of the gate.

    Bench was the "chosen one". Annointed by the likes of Ted Williams right out of the gate.

    Other than Junior, I can't remember many other players to come along with such "can't miss" status.
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
    ~ Mark Twain

  16. #45
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    Re: Joey Votto Superstar?

    Other than Junior, I can't remember many other players to come along with such "can't miss" status.
    ED, if a half-step below that kind of ballyhoo.
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