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Thread: Joey Votto Superstar?

  1. #61
    Member membengal's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto Superstar?

    I don't know where else to put this, so I will put it here. From Buster Olney's blog on insider on espn.com, this snippet:

    Votto is hitting .409 on pitches middle-in, and .419 on pitches middle away; both numbers are 100 points higher than the league average.

    "I'd give him the Barry Bonds treatment right now," said the evaluator. "I wouldn't even pitch to him. Right now, he's more dangerous than Pujols."

    Really?

    "Put it this way: If he and Pujols were in the same lineup, I'd pitch around Votto to get to Pujols. I wouldn't do that the rest of the season, but right now, that's how good Votto is going."
    http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog?...ter&id=5360166

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  3. #62
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    Re: Joey Votto Superstar?

    A superstar is the top players in the game over the course of two or three years. IMO, it has nothing to do with media or media-related posturing.

    For example, Willie Mays was a superstar, as was Mickey Mantle.

    Roger Maris was not.

    Votto is close, as of now. If he continues to play like he has the past year and a half, he's a superstar.
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  4. #63
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto Superstar?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    A superstar is the top players in the game over the course of two or three years. IMO, it has nothing to do with media or media-related posturing.

    For example, Willie Mays was a superstar, as was Mickey Mantle.

    Roger Maris was not.

    Votto is close, as of now. If he continues to play like he has the past year and a half, he's a superstar.
    So Roger Maris who won 2 MVP's in a row and broke Babe's record wasn't a superstar then, but Joey Votto who has 2 nice seasons in a row going will be?

    Ok.

  5. #64
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    Re: Joey Votto Superstar?

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    So Roger Maris who won 2 MVP's in a row and broke Babe's record wasn't a superstar then, but Joey Votto who has 2 nice seasons in a row going will be?

    Ok.
    Different time. Maris wasn't a superstar because he didn't want to be. He hated the limelight that Mantle craved. And he wasn't adored by the press or the fans.

    Votto is in the same mold IMO. Superstar talent, blue collar mentality. But in this information age, he doesn't have the luxury of hiding. His name is news everyday the Reds play, and most days they don't.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  6. #65
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto Superstar?

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    Different time. Maris wasn't a superstar because he didn't want to be. He hated the limelight that Mantle craved. And he wasn't adored by the press or the fans.

    Votto is in the same mold IMO. Superstar talent, blue collar mentality. But in this information age, he doesn't have the luxury of hiding. His name is news everyday the Reds play, and most days they don't.
    Sorry, in the early 60's Roger Maris (who played on the most popular and news satutrated team) was a superstar.

    No spin can change that.

  7. #66
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto Superstar?

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Sorry, in the early 60's Roger Maris (who played on the most popular and news satutrated team) was a superstar.
    I agree. Maris hated the attention but he was probably one of the ten most recognized players in the game from 1960 until he retired. I don't know if it would be possible to research this but I would be shocked if Hank Aaron, Roberto Clemente, Al Kaline or Frank Robinson got as much media coverage as Maris did at that time (Robinson finally began getting coverage after he was traded to the Orioles).
    If we use "fame" as the criteria to rank players as superstars, then Don Drysdale was a bigger superstar than Warren Spahn, Steve Carlton, Phil Niekro, Don Sutton, and Gaylord Perry, all of whom were his contemporaries and all of whom were 300 game winners. Drysdale may have been a bigger superstar by that measurement than was Bob Gibson and certainly was a bigger superstar than Juan Marichal. Drysdale was not a better pitcher than those guys, but he was sure more famous in the 1960s.
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  8. #67
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    Re: Joey Votto Superstar?

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Sorry, in the early 60's Roger Maris (who played on the most popular and news satutrated team) was a superstar.

    No spin can change that.
    I wasn't alive in the 60's but I would imagine the game was a much more balanced game. Geographical advantages weren't the reason for success. Unless you have a special player come along I just don't see a superstar existing outside of NY, LA, or Boston. If some great player would go to the Cubs and get them a WS title then I think you can anoint him a super star as well.

    I may be a little over the top but right now the mainstream fan and mainstream media doesn't care, or even know for that matter, that the game exists outside of your large cities. Right now you have Pujols who is a bonified super star, but outside of him how many, non major market players, carry that star status?

  9. #68
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    Re: Joey Votto Superstar?

    Joey Votto will even never come close to being as famous as Roger Maris, even if he ends up playing for 15 more years and has a great career. In this "information age" the Joey Votto's of this world are drowned out by the noise of those who are self promoters or who break notable records. Joey likely does neither.
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  10. #69
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    Re: Joey Votto Superstar?

    As evidence of Drysdale's fame, check out this partial list of his TV appearances:
    The Red Skelton Hour (1957)
    To Tell The Truth (1959)
    Lawman (1960)
    The Millionaire (1960)
    The Rifleman (1962)
    The Donna Reed Show (1962-64--four episodes)
    Leave It To Beaver (1962)
    Alcoa Premiere (1964)
    The New Steve Allen Show (1963)
    Bob Hope Presents The Chrysler Theatre (1963)
    The Joey Bishop Show (1964)
    The Hollywood Palace (1966)
    Cowboy In Africa (1968)
    The Flying Nun (1969)
    The Kraft Music Hall (1969)
    Then Came Bronson (1969)
    The Brady Bunch (1970)
    Lucas Tanner (1974)
    The Greatest American Hero (1981)
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

  11. #70
    Please come again pedro's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto Superstar?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron View Post
    As evidence of Drysdale's fame, check out this partial list of his TV appearances:
    The Red Skelton Hour (1957)
    To Tell The Truth (1959)
    Lawman (1960)
    The Millionaire (1960)
    The Rifleman (1962)
    The Donna Reed Show (1962-64--four episodes)
    Leave It To Beaver (1962)
    Alcoa Premiere (1964)
    The New Steve Allen Show (1963)
    Bob Hope Presents The Chrysler Theatre (1963)
    The Joey Bishop Show (1964)
    The Hollywood Palace (1966)
    Cowboy In Africa (1968)
    The Flying Nun (1969)
    The Kraft Music Hall (1969)
    Then Came Bronson (1969)
    The Brady Bunch (1970)
    Lucas Tanner (1974)
    The Greatest American Hero (1981)
    Wow.
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  12. #71
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    Re: Joey Votto Superstar?

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Sorry, in the early 60's Roger Maris (who played on the most popular and news satutrated team) was a superstar.

    No spin can change that.
    It isn't spin. Yankee fans hated Maris as much as they liked him. He was resented for challenging the HR mark and NOT being Mantle. Mantle was a superstar. Maris a star. Mantle had the longevity and the press behind him. Maris didn't. He was a very good, not great ballplayer caught up in circumstances. He was the Dale Murphy of his era, or vice versa. (In terms of fame.)

    And Votto likely won't ever come close to the name recognition Maris got because of those circumstances. Put it this way, had Maris had that same season, that same year, but in KC, would he have been a superstar? Probably not in any sense of the word.

    Fame, superstardom is something embraced by all parties. Bonds, while certainly not loved outside SF was a superstar, because he embraced it, the media embraced it, and fans bought into him as a superstar. I'm removing talent from the equation for just a moment. KGJ was a superstar, but he never seemed to relish the role. As he grew older his stardom diminished along with his abilities (Time is a far more cruel mistress than Fate is fickle) Michael Jordan to this day is still a superstar. John Elway is not.

    Roger Maris isn't who I think of when I think Yankee Greats. He's far down the list. There is a reason he's not in the Hall of Fame.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  13. #72
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto Superstar?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron View Post
    As evidence of Drysdale's fame, check out this partial list of his TV appearances:
    The Red Skelton Hour (1957)
    To Tell The Truth (1959)
    Lawman (1960)
    The Millionaire (1960)
    The Rifleman (1962)
    The Donna Reed Show (1962-64--four episodes)
    Leave It To Beaver (1962)
    Alcoa Premiere (1964)
    The New Steve Allen Show (1963)
    Bob Hope Presents The Chrysler Theatre (1963)
    The Joey Bishop Show (1964)
    The Hollywood Palace (1966)
    Cowboy In Africa (1968)
    The Flying Nun (1969)
    The Kraft Music Hall (1969)
    Then Came Bronson (1969)
    The Brady Bunch (1970)
    Lucas Tanner (1974)
    The Greatest American Hero (1981)
    Good looking LA boy playing at home.

  14. #73
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    Re: Joey Votto Superstar?

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    It isn't spin. Yankee fans hated Maris as much as they liked him. He was resented for challenging the HR mark and NOT being Mantle. Mantle was a superstar. Maris a star. Mantle had the longevity and the press behind him. Maris didn't. He was a very good, not great ballplayer caught up in circumstances. He was the Dale Murphy of his era, or vice versa. (In terms of fame.)

    And Votto likely won't ever come close to the name recognition Maris got because of those circumstances. Put it this way, had Maris had that same season, that same year, but in KC, would he have been a superstar? Probably not in any sense of the word.

    Fame, superstardom is something embraced by all parties. Bonds, while certainly not loved outside SF was a superstar, because he embraced it, the media embraced it, and fans bought into him as a superstar. I'm removing talent from the equation for just a moment. KGJ was a superstar, but he never seemed to relish the role. As he grew older his stardom diminished along with his abilities (Time is a far more cruel mistress than Fate is fickle) Michael Jordan to this day is still a superstar. John Elway is not.

    Roger Maris isn't who I think of when I think Yankee Greats. He's far down the list. There is a reason he's not in the Hall of Fame.
    Yet despite all that the man has his own museum

    http://www.rogermarismuseum.com/

  15. #74
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    Re: Joey Votto Superstar?

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Yet despite all that the man has his own museum

    http://www.rogermarismuseum.com/
    So does Liberace.

    http://www.liberace.org/
    Suck it up cupcake.

  16. #75
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    Re: Joey Votto Superstar?

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Good looking LA boy playing at home.
    Probably the first major league baseball game I ever caught a glimpse of was the 1963 World Series, which I can recall seeing a portion of on TV at age 8. I can also recall Don Drysdale and Sandy Koufax, along with a few other Dodgers, later singing a version of "High Hopes" on a TV show, wherein the players changed the lyrics from "oops there goes another rubber tree down" to something like "oops there goes another Yankee down," the Dodgers having disposed of the Yankees 5-2, 4-1, 1-0 and 2-1.
    That got me to wonder what TV show Drysdale and Koufax had both sang on, so I checked Koufax's list of TV appearances. Drysdale and Koufax both appeared on Bob Hope Presents The Chrysler Theatre as themselves on October 25, 1963, so I assume that was the show on which they sang.
    I wa surprised to find that Koufax had himself done some limited acting, since Sandy was regarded as being much more reserved than Don. I knew that Koufax and Drysdale had threatened to become actors during their joint holdout in the spring of 1966 but I didn't realize Koufax had actually done any acting, even if limited. Koufax appeared as an actor on the following shows:

    Shotgun Slade (1959)
    77 Sunset Strip (1960)
    Colt .45 (1960)
    Bourbon Street Beat (1960)

    Koufax also had several TV appearances as himself, including on "Dennis The Menace" and "Mister Ed."
    I was amused that IMDB also listed his TV appearances in the 1959, 1963, 1965 and 1966 World Series as being appearances on a "TV mini-series."
    Last edited by RedsBaron; 07-07-2010 at 03:30 PM.
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