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Thread: Cliff Lee

  1. #571
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Three comments. 1. Assumptions that we'll never get any value out of Alonso except in trade are based on the further assumption that Joey Votto will sign a long-term deal beyond his arb years. There's no evidence for this assumption. 2. Regarding strength and certainty, it certainly doesn't seem to me that RZ represents the attitude of negotiating from strength. People are falling all over themselves to come up with ever greater packages to trade for Lee. If he's negotiating, I hope Walt's a little more measured. 3. Is it at all bothersome that we now seem to be investing all of our hopes in acquiring something we do not have rather than in concentrating on what we do have? Does that strike people as the characteristic of a good organization? I'm happy to go on record as opposing a trade for Cliff Lee, as I also opposed trading off many of the players RZers now love for Bedard some time back; and this is not simply because I'm opposed to trading, as I supported the trade for Scott Rolen--for real, longer-term value--as strongly as anyone on RZ.

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  3. #572
    Member mdccclxix's Avatar
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    A look at what Sabathia brought the Indians in 08:

    Matt LaPorta - had 22 hr and .964 OPS in AA at 23 that year - 7th overall pick in 2007
    Rob Bryson - had 70 k's in 55 innings that year in A at 20 years old
    Zach Jackson - a former 1st rounder that put up pedestrian K and ERA numbers in AAA for 3 years before the trade
    Michael Brantley - 7th rounder - 160 sb's and .387 OBP in minors - nice player

    My best comps would be Alonso, D. Joseph, Matt Klinker, and a Sappelt or Lemarre (can't be traded).

    It kind of fits with the reports the M's want 2 blue chips and the rest is easily provided from our minor league depth.
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  4. #573
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    A look at what Sabathia brought the Indians in 08:

    Matt LaPorta - had 22 hr and .964 OPS in AA at 23 that year - 7th overall pick in 2007
    Rob Bryson - had 70 k's in 55 innings that year in A at 20 years old
    Zach Jackson - a former 1st rounder that put up pedestrian K and ERA numbers in AAA for 3 years
    Michael Brantley - 7th rounder - 160 sb's and .387 OBP in minors - nice player

    My best comps would be Alonso, D. Joseph, Matt Klinker, and a Sappelt or Lemarre (can't be traded).

    It kind of fits with the reports the M's want 2 blue chips and the rest is easily provided from our minor league depth.
    Nice look back. It should be remembered, too, that the Brewers got Sabathia on this day, July 7. The longer the Ms hold Lee, the greater the chance they'll lose leverage in these negotiations.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  5. #574
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Did the Brewers win a series? Are they a better team now or one significantly in decline? Did they trade some talent that could--even if not used at home--have been moved for other things they need badly?

  6. #575
    I'm gettin paper Homer Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Quote Originally Posted by HokieRed View Post
    Did the Brewers win a series? Are they a better team now or one significantly in decline? Did they trade some talent that could--even if not used at home--have been moved for other things they need badly?
    Did that trade launch them into the playoffs? Did it improve their team? Did it improve their chances to win in the playoffs? Had it been a really long time since they had been to the playoffs?

    The answer to all of those questions is a RESOUNDING yes.

  7. #576
    Member OesterPoster's Avatar
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Wasn't sure if anyone else follows the M's prospect site on Twitter, but I suspect news of a Lee trade (if it happens) will show up on his Twitter feed pretty quickly.

    ProspectInsider
    Crawford and Churchill discussed 3-way deal between Sea, TB, Mil, but Minny's Hicks is a better deal -- if they can get him. Not likely. half a minute ago via web

    ProspectInsider
    Update on Cliff Lee sweepstakes: M's getting antsy? http://bit.ly/leetominny about 1 hour ago via bitly

  8. #577
    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Quote Originally Posted by KoryMac5 View Post
    Your giving up prospects for Lee for basically two months. Where as with Haren and Drew you have them under team control for a little longer. If I am going to be paying a King's ransome for a difference maker I would at least want to see the player(s) perform for a full season in Red.
    Worry about next year next year, right now the Reds have a chance to win something real, not a mythical "Competitive" flag.
    Go Gators!

  9. #578
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Quote Originally Posted by OesterPoster View Post
    Wasn't sure if anyone else follows the M's prospect site on Twitter, but I suspect news of a Lee trade (if it happens) will show up on his Twitter feed pretty quickly.

    ProspectInsider
    Crawford and Churchill discussed 3-way deal between Sea, TB, Mil, but Minny's Hicks is a better deal -- if they can get him. Not likely. half a minute ago via web

    ProspectInsider
    Update on Cliff Lee sweepstakes: M's getting antsy? http://bit.ly/leetominny about 1 hour ago via bitly
    I'd be pretty skeptical of any site that claims the Ms asked for Jay Bruce or Joey Votto.... Just' saying......
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  10. #579
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    I'd be pretty skeptical of any site that claims the Ms asked for Jay Bruce or Joey Votto.... Just' saying......
    Even moreso skeptical of any site that claims the "Reds told ____" that these two were off limits.

    Something tells me the Reds haven't even heard of the aforementioned site lol
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  11. #580
    Socratic Gadfly TheNext44's Avatar
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Quote Originally Posted by Homer Bailey View Post
    Did that trade launch them into the playoffs? Did it improve their team? Did it improve their chances to win in the playoffs? Had it been a really long time since they had been to the playoffs?

    The answer to all of those questions is a RESOUNDING yes.
    But I think this trade shows that a team can give up too much a player, even if that player does do everything they teams asked of him when they traded for him.

    I think the Brewers are glad they got CC, but now regret all the talent that they lost to get him. If they had those guys, they could have used them to fill some holes that this year's team has. They mortgaged their future for a shot at the gold for one year.

    Now to fair, the Brewers organization in '08 was not as deep as the Reds organization right now. Maybe that's why they went for it in '08, because they knew that they it was going to be their best shot for awhile.

    One benefit with going for it now, is that no matter what, it helps bring in revenue and improve team and fan moral. It establishes that the team is a winner. That did work with the Brewers, as even though they are not contending this year, everyone thinks of them as team that should contend each year. Bringing in someone like Lee could do something similar for the Reds.
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

  12. #581
    Member Spitball's Avatar
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Quote Originally Posted by Homer Bailey View Post
    Did that trade launch them into the playoffs? Did it improve their team? Did it improve their chances to win in the playoffs? Had it been a really long time since they had been to the playoffs?

    The answer to all of those questions is a RESOUNDING yes.
    Plus, the Brewers saw over three million fans attend games that year. There is nothing like building a winning season to pack a ball park and to create some revenue.

    Quote Originally Posted by HokieRed
    Are they a better team now or one significantly in decline?
    They are still tenth in MLB attendance.
    "I am your child from the future. I'm sorry I didn't tell you this earlier." - Dylan Easton

  13. #582
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp View Post
    Even moreso skeptical of any site that claims the "Reds told ____" that these two were off limits.

    Something tells me the Reds haven't even heard of the aforementioned site lol
    The writer, Jason Churchill is also a writer for ESPN.com.

  14. #583
    Member medford's Avatar
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Quote Originally Posted by HokieRed View Post
    Three comments. 1. Assumptions that we'll never get any value out of Alonso except in trade are based on the further assumption that Joey Votto will sign a long-term deal beyond his arb years. There's no evidence for this assumption. 2. Regarding strength and certainty, it certainly doesn't seem to me that RZ represents the attitude of negotiating from strength. People are falling all over themselves to come up with ever greater packages to trade for Lee. If he's negotiating, I hope Walt's a little more measured. 3. Is it at all bothersome that we now seem to be investing all of our hopes in acquiring something we do not have rather than in concentrating on what we do have? Does that strike people as the characteristic of a good organization? I'm happy to go on record as opposing a trade for Cliff Lee, as I also opposed trading off many of the players RZers now love for Bedard some time back; and this is not simply because I'm opposed to trading, as I supported the trade for Scott Rolen--for real, longer-term value--as strongly as anyone on RZ.
    What if Yonder goes on to be nothing more than an average 1B?, what if Francisco never finds the hole in his swing while being very Edwinesque at 3b? What if Donnie Joseph puts up Zach Stewart like numbers once he reaches high levels? what if Devon puts up AAA numbers more similar to his low A numbers than this season's numbers? What if Grandal is clearly the better option than him at C in a couple of seasons, or if Hannigan is better than both at the end of the day?

    Point is, you have as much certaintity in the prospects being thrown around as you do in the belief that Cliff Lee will lead the Reds to the WS. How will this team look next year w/o Yonder, Joseph, Mes, etc... in the minors? the only one mentioned that makes a real difference next year is Wood. The only ones that truely effect them in 2 years are possibly mes, Wood & Joseph but if we're to believe in the futures of Volquez, Cueto, Bailey, Leake, & Chapman, Wood won't be terribly missed. Having prospects are nice, but give me the playoffs any year. The names most often thrown around, I'm not even sure if the Reds are going to miss them next year. At some point, the future has to become the present. The Reds have a solid core of prospects in AAA/AA right now, but they have an equally solid core developing down in billings and the Arizona league. Yorman, Silva, Duran, hamilton, Grandal, etc... could all be pushing these guys out of the organization in a couple of seasons if the Reds hold on to them.

    Unless Seattle is asking for the moon, and Yonder or Fransisco don't seem like the moon to me, its time to get this done and shoot for the postseason. If the Reds make the postseason, I'd rather have Lee starting game 1 than Arroyo, Volquez, cueto, Leake, Wood, Baily, Chapman or Harang. which in turns makes the game 2 starter that much stronger, same w/ the game 3 starter, then its back to Lee at the top. If he can give a team what he gave the Phillies last year this postseason, that team will be tough to beat.

  15. #584
    Greatness In The Making RedLegSuperStar's Avatar
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Haran is said to be staying in Arizona along with Drew.

    MLBTradeRumors

    In his latest column, Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports argues that it's unlikely the Diamondbacks make a huge splash before the trade deadline. With interim GM Jerry DiPoto not expected to hold the position past this season, Rosenthal is skeptical that the D'Backs would give him the reins to blow up the roster. Although Arizona could trade potential free agents like Adam LaRoche, Chad Qualls, and Aaron Heilman, Rosenthal thinks the team probably won't move Dan Haren, Kelly Johnson, or Stephen Drew. Here are a few other notes from the piece:
    "I could watch video of Griffey swinging all day. It's like baseball porn." - C. Trent Rosecrans


    2008 Reds Record When I Attend: 9W - 5L

    2009 Reds Record When I Attend: 1W - 2L

    2010 Reds Record When I Attend: 1W - 0L

    2011 Reds Record When I Attend: 0W - 1L

  16. #585
    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Joe Sheehan predicts the Reds acquire Cliff Lee:

    The 31-year-old lefty, who was dealt from Cleveland to Philadelphia at last year's deadline and then to Seattle in the offseason, is traded for the fourth time in a year, completing the round-trip back to Ohio as the Reds build a package around 2008 first-round pick Yonder Alonso -- the kind of middle-of-the-order bat the Mariners need -- to add a true No. 1 starter. The trade affirms Walt Jocketty's status as the Don of the Deadline, and when Lee goes CC Sabathia on the NL -- 10-1, 1.44 ERA, six complete games, a handful of Cy Young votes -- it's enough to help the Reds relegate Jocketty's old team, the Cardinals, to second-class citizens in the NL Central. The first postseason game in Great American Ball Park is a sellout, but the Reds, behind Bronson Arroyo, drop a 7-2 decision to the Phillies and are eliminated shortly thereafter.
    Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...#ixzz0t20FoBmz
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