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Thread: Cliff Lee

  1. #211
    Socratic Gadfly TheNext44's Avatar
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Any team doing the attendance-payroll math should be looking at the value of making the playoffs on future years' attendance, which is well-established and significant, not just the value of the attendance during the remainder of this year.
    You would hope that Jocketty has learned this from his Cardinal days.

    It was a while ago, but I read that a playoff appearance, even if you lose three straight in the first round, nets a team a minimum of $4M in added revenue over the long haul.
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

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  3. #212
    Party like it's 1990 Blitz Dorsey's Avatar
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    I would not give up Cueto, Bruce or Leake in the deal. No freakin' way. I would love to put a deal together of Yonder Alonso plus a couple more prospects. Maybe Mesoraco would be one of them since he's been hot this year and the Reds just drafted a catcher in the first round.

    If the M's can get a better deal, good for them. But I bet the Reds can put together a very attractive offer without giving up any of our real top prospects/top young players already in the Majors.

    Alonso, Mesoraco and Wood might do the trick. I would hate to give up the latter though. But to get Cliff Lee, the Reds would have to give up at least one player we'd hate to lose. I just don't think it will be any of the trio of Cueto/Bruce/Leake.

  4. #213
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Quote Originally Posted by Blitz Dorsey View Post
    I would not give up Cueto, Bruce or Leake in the deal.
    It's probably not likely those names would come up in a conversation about Lee.

    The Reds have plenty of young guys that could fuel a legitimate phone call.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  5. #214
    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    It's probably not likely those names would come up in a conversation about Lee.

    The Reds have plenty of young guys that could fuel a legitimate phone call.
    As a Mariners fan, who you ask for in a deal with the Reds?
    I miss Adam Dunn.

  6. #215
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    If money is truly the issue and if the Reds could land Lee, they could dump Harang. I do think there are teams in contention that would pick up the tab on Harang's remaining salary without flinching. He's not that expensive.

  7. #216
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Quote Originally Posted by fearofpopvol1 View Post
    If money is truly the issue and if the Reds could land Lee, they could dump Harang. I do think there are teams in contention that would pick up the tab on Harang's remaining salary without flinching. He's not that expensive.
    I can only imagine how another team's fanbase would react if we beat them out for Cliff Lee and then flipped them Harang as a consolation prize...
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  8. #217
    Member Spitball's Avatar
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNext44 View Post
    I think this is one of the rare cases where Gammons got his fact wrong.

    Scudder had only been drafted the year before out of high school, so I doubt his name was ever brought up, and if it was, I'm not sure he even could have been traded then.
    No, I believe I am the one mistaken here. I must have been thinking about a trade rumor from possibly 1990. I remember him saying, "I shudder to think the Reds would give up Scudder."

    I do believe the Pirates did want Larkin, Daniels, and Jones, but I'm pretty certain the Reds never entertained even a notion to accept that deal. Rueschel wasn't traded until August 21 so the Reds would have been trading a good part of their line-up with a little more than a month left in the season.

    BTW, the Reds did try to trade for Mark Gubicza about that time but the Royals wanted Larkin instead of Stillwell. Over the winter, the Royals, who already had three lefty starters, agreed to take Stillwell for Danny Jackson.


    Larkin and Stillwell were sharing SS at this point, and Larkin was not doing that well. There was lots of discussion over who was better, Stillwell or Larkin, and it really wasn't clear at this point who was.
    Actually, Larkin was pretty much the starting shortstop. He started 114 games at short while Stillwell only started 47. Stillwell started 48 games at second and third. Stillwell was thought to have some potential but really was not considered particularly strong offensively nor defensively.

    And the Reds had Paul O'Neill coming up, so he could have replaced Daniels.
    But I'm not sure if anyone in the organization thought O'Neill had Daniels' potential. Despite pretty much platooning with Jones, he was having a great first season. Remember this was late August in a season that saw him OPS 1.046, hit 26 homers, steal 26 bases, and bat .334. In 395 at bats, Tracy Jones would hit .290 with 10 homers and 18 stolen bases. They played an important part in the Reds' offensive scheme.

    Like I said, I believe the Pirates may have wanted to fleece the Reds, but I'm pretty sure Cincinnati was never considering giving up that much that late in the season for basically a number two or three starter. After all, the Giants didn't give up near that much.

    Btw, rumor had it that Rueschel did not care for his free agency dealings with the Reds from a couple of winters before and did not want to be traded to the Reds.
    "I am your child from the future. I'm sorry I didn't tell you this earlier." - Dylan Easton

  9. #218
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Agreed. Alonso, Mesoraco, and a B prospect or two should be attractive enough for Seattle.

    I'd think Maloney, Alonso, Mesoraco, and Duran should be enough. Seattle would re-load with major league ready prospects better than what they have now (Alonso at 1B/DH/LF and Maloney would profile as a MOR LH starter) and later (Mesoraco in two years as a C and Duran in a few years in the OF).
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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  10. #219
    Party like it's 1990 Blitz Dorsey's Avatar
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    It's probably not likely those names would come up in a conversation about Lee.

    The Reds have plenty of young guys that could fuel a legitimate phone call.
    I agree. I was just responding to earlier posts that opined one of them would have to be in a Cliff Lee deal for the M's to accept it.

  11. #220
    Party like it's 1990 Blitz Dorsey's Avatar
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Agreed. Alonso, Mesoraco, and a B prospect or two should be attractive enough for Seattle.

    I'd think Maloney, Alonso, Mesoraco, and Duran should be enough. Seattle would re-load with major league ready prospects better than what they have now (Alonso at 1B/DH/LF and Maloney would profile as a MOR LH starter) and later (Mesoraco in two years as a C and Duran in a few years in the OF).
    I think it would take more than that, but I hope you're right. As I said earlier, I think it would take Alonso, Mesoraco and maybe someone as good as Wood to pull off that deal. I don't think we can get away with Alonso, Mez and a couple of "B list" prospects. And I would put Duran more of a "C or D list" prospect; can't imagine he would have much value in a trade.

  12. #221
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Quote Originally Posted by Blitz Dorsey View Post
    I think it would take more than that, but I hope you're right. As I said earlier, I think it would take Alonso, Mesoraco and maybe someone as good as Wood to pull off that deal. I don't think we can get away with Alonso, Mez and a couple of "B list" prospects. And I would put Duran more of a "C or D list" prospect; can't imagine he would have much value in a trade.
    Duran C or D? that's laughable. He's a high upside prospect signed to a 2M bonus. Oh, and he's what? 17? He's exactly the kind of talent I'd be looking to infuse into my system.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  13. #222
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Well...since now they are writing that the Yankees want lee and of course...the yankees get whatever they want.

    On ESPN ...Kruk and Kravich? were talking about how comfortable he looks in yankee Stadium...and Kruk was talking about how much he will love the Yankees offense. Having to hear this stuff just turns me off completely in regards to baseball.

  14. #223
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    Duran C or D? that's laughable. He's a high upside prospect signed to a 2M bonus. Oh, and he's what? 17? He's exactly the kind of talent I'd be looking to infuse into my system.
    I don't think I would consider Duran a C or D prospect. I don't even know if I could throw an appropriate ranking on him. Right now I think I would tend to go with NEI (not enough information). He isn't the type of guy you trade, especially as a throw in. You have to let these players develop before you make a decision one way or the other. The earliest I think you see him traded is by A ball, but I think you can say that about pretty much every prospect.

  15. #224
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    As for the whole trade Larkin conversation. Hindsight is always 20/20 and the Reds made the right decision, but were the Reds ever seriously entertaining trading Larkin. They drafted him out of HS and then in the 1st round out of college. He was a home town boy who had made his way through the minors to the Reds. I would imagine the Reds would have given him more than enough rope. I know it is talked about, but it seemed like the common sense decision was made. Am I off base here?

  16. #225
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    As for the whole trade Larkin conversation. Hindsight is always 20/20 and the Reds made the right decision, but were the Reds ever seriously entertaining trading Larkin. They drafted him out of HS and then in the 1st round out of college. He was a home town boy who had made his way through the minors to the Reds. I would imagine the Reds would have given him more than enough rope. I know it is talked about, but it seemed like the common sense decision was made. Am I off base here?
    They also drafted Stillwell as a Top 5 pick in the first round. Stillwell was thought of by many of the early prospect analysts to be one of if not the best prospect in the game at the time, which is pretty silly when you look at his numbers. That said, he was very toolsy.

    Hopefully we'll have the same problem in a couple years with Mesoraco and Grandal, and we can only hope the right decision will be made again, 25 years later.
    Go BLUE!!!


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