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Thread: Cliff Lee

  1. #436
    It's showtime! RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Quote Originally Posted by Plus Plus View Post
    JeffFletcherAOL

    MLB source hears #twins have offered OF Aaron Hicks (1st rnd, 08, 900 minor lg OPS) and top C prospect Wilson Ramos for C.Lee #mariners

    http://twitter.com/JeffFletcherAOL
    Would Heisey, Mesoraco and Wood top that? It would sure hurt, but maybe that's what it would take at this point.
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  3. #437
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    I don't know much about Hicks. Can anyone fill me in on him? I know that Ramos is a highly regarded C prospect who is struggling to hit this season.
    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Thus his team was punished

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  4. #438
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    They've produced a pythag .500 team.
    Whoa, whoa, whoa. So it's gotten to the point where pythag measures "producing" more than wins? There are metrics, and then there are wins--one is a measurement used to quantify aspects of production, and the other is production itself.
    "Don't trust any statistics you did not fake yourself."--Winston Churchill

  5. #439
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Way to misreport the numbers, Jeff Fletcher. Hicks OPSed .900 in rookie ball. His overall minor league OPS is .792. He OPSed .735 in A last year and is OPS .776 so far this year in A ball. He's 20 years old.

    If the Twins offer Hicks and Ramos, that is a pretty good package. I still think Alonso and Wood equates to a better package though. Hicks does have great speed and an awesome arm...plays great defense. Power is supposed to "develop." He kind of reminds me of Stubbs actually, although I think he is probably going to be better than Stubbs. Definitely a very good prospect, but in my opinion, he's still a question mark. I think Alonso is a better prospect right now.

    If the Reds offered Stubbs and Mesoraco, that's an infinitely better package, but I'm hoping Mesoraco is not included in the package.

  6. #440
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Alonso and Heisey is a better package. Throw in Francisco and that would allow them to move Lopez to the Mets for more prospects and it's shoulders above Ramos and Hicks. There is no need to include Wood or Mez in this deal.
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  7. #441
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    With all this talk of Cliff Lee, are people making these proposed deals w/ the thinking that the Reds re-sign him or as a 2 month rental?

  8. #442
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Quote Originally Posted by SirFelixCat View Post
    With all this talk of Cliff Lee, are people making these proposed deals w/ the thinking that the Reds re-sign him or as a 2 month rental?
    My understanding is that Lee is dead-set on testing the free agent waters. I don't see him signing any extension that is any less than insanely favorable for him.
    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Thus his team was punished

    Long live punishment

  9. #443
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Quote Originally Posted by SirFelixCat View Post
    With all this talk of Cliff Lee, are people making these proposed deals w/ the thinking that the Reds re-sign him or as a 2 month rental?
    2 month rental. Virtually zero chance the Reds sign him to a LTC.

    This from the Twins local reporter LaVelle E. Nea by way of MLBTRl:

    The Twins aren't close to a deal for Lee, a team source tells LaVelle E. Neal III of the Star Tribune (via Twitter).
    If the Twins are really offering Hicks and Ramos, my guess is the Reds will have to give up 2 of Mesoraco, Alonso, and Heisey, and that still may not be enough. I could live with trading 2 of those guys, although anymore than that and I'd focus my attention elsewhere, including Arizona and Houston.
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  10. #444
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    I would rather not give up Mes, but we could certainly afford to give up three prospects for a rental of Cliff Lee. Won't we get two draft choices from offering him arbitration when he turns it down? So if we gave up, say, Alonso, Heisey, and Wood, we'd theoretically get replacements for two of the three in the draft. The third player would be the actual cost of the rental. I think that's a fair price, but I'd try to avoid giving up Mes...catchers take so long to develop and he looks like he's just about there. He could be something special for years to come.

    "Okay you guys, pair up in threes!" --Yogi Berra

  11. #445
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Quote Originally Posted by nemesis View Post
    Alonso and Heisey is a better package. Throw in Francisco and that would allow them to move Lopez to the Mets for more prospects and it's shoulders above Ramos and Hicks. There is no need to include Wood or Mez in this deal.
    I think this is the package that will be the framework for a deal with the M's. All along the information coming out is that the M's need near ML ready bats. Alonso and Heisey are much more ML ready than the package the Twins are offering.

    I don't think the M's are really interested as much in Wood, but if an additional piece is required, perhaps Frazier or Francisco would round out the deal.

  12. #446
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Perhaps the rumor deal was to see if anti up the offer?

    I want this deal as a Reds fan.. This team is stacked with talent in the minors that may or may not be great and most of them are blocked by talent at the big league level. It's 2+ months.. But how far did Philly get? They didn't need to make any moves and they did. Just saying this team can go from good to great with a move like this. If everyone is ok with Aaron Harang in the rotation and having our pen drained due to pitchers going 5-6 innings then so be it. I want that ace who can carry a team to not only the postseason but beyond.
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  13. #447
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNext44 View Post
    JoJo will hate me for saying this, but I'm not positive that Lee would be the best pitcher for the Reds to acquire this season. I think he might get hit hard in GABP. He seems to have found a way to maximize Safeco's death valley. He'd probably be very good for the Reds (around what he did for Philly last season), but I don't think he'd be as dominant as he has been for Seattle.

    I'd rather get Haren.
    Haren's not the same old Haren anymore. At least not THIS season. Have you seen the number of HR's he's given up this year? Now put that in GABP. *shudders*

    I'm not advocating getting Lee either. I'm just sayin'.
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  14. #448
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    Haren's not the same old Haren anymore. At least not THIS season. Have you seen the number of HR's he's given up this year? Now put that in GABP. *shudders*
    His FB-rate is up abit this year, and his HR/FB -rate is up quite a bit.

    His K-rate and W-rate are as good or better than ever, and his BABIP is .340.

    There appears to be little wrong with Haren this season, and since he's signed for 2 more years beyond this year (incluing his option) he's a more likely Walt target.

  15. #449
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNext44 View Post
    JoJo will hate me for saying this, but I'm not positive that Lee would be the best pitcher for the Reds to acquire this season. I think he might get hit hard in GABP. He seems to have found a way to maximize Safeco's death valley. He'd probably be very good for the Reds (around what he did for Philly last season), but I don't think he'd be as dominant as he has been for Seattle.

    I'd rather get Haren.
    Didn't seem to bother him in Philadelphia last year, and isn't it as HR friendly as GABP?
    Suck it up cupcake.

  16. #450
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    Didn't seem to bother him in Philadelphia last year, and isn't it as HR friendly as GABP?
    One reason Lee's fly ball tendencies probably play better or are at least neautralized in small park is the fact that the guy doesn't walk anyone. Solo homers won't generally kill you in this league. The high pitch count and 3-run jack will. Lee avoids those masterfully.

    I went back to look at what Lee did for Philly after the trade last year. It is pretty remarkable. Not only did he pitch well to get them there, he also pitched extremely well on the big stage that is the playoffs. The Reds have no one on the pitching staff who can say they've been there, done that. Arroyo pitched mostly out of the 'pen for Boston, back in 2003-2004, and didn't fare too terribly well then either.

    So post-season experience is a HUGE reason the Reds should be considering this move.
    I have a love-hate relationship with Albert Pujols. Mostly hate.


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