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Thread: Cliff Lee

  1. #346
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    From Buster Olney's twitter:

    SEA continues to look for big bat potential in a Lee deal, and 2 guys fit the description:Justin Smoak of TEX and Yonder Alonso of the Reds.

    As old friend Peter Gammons notes, Alonso(former No. 1 pick,.713 OPS in minors)is blocked in the CIN organization by MVP cand. Joey Votto.

    http://twitter.com/Buster_ESPN

    It should be noted around this time last year Yonder Alonso broke the hamate bone in his wrist and that type of injury usually saps power for a year. Alonso has struggled at times this season but he's starting to heat up as his wrist heals. He's working on a streak of three consecutive three hit games, including a grand slam last night. He could be heating up at the perfect time.
    If the Rangers actually offered Smoak, the Reds would pretty much be out of it.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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  3. #347
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    If the Rangers actually offered Smoak, the Reds would pretty much be out of it.
    I agree. But I also don't think the Rangers will offer up Smoak. He's a viable option for them NOW....not the case with Yonder and the Reds. I like Yonder, and I wish there was an opening here with the Reds and him. But there simply isn't. There just no way the Reds are moving Votto off of first and Yonder is NOT a good enough LF'er to justify his bat there (especially since his bat hasn't done much up to this point, but I think it will).
    2014 predictions:
    99-63 WS champs (Cards take 2nd WC, Mil 3rd, Pit 4th, Chi 5th)
    Bruce/Votto neck and neck MVP race (neither takes it)
    Bailey CYA winner
    Hamilton ROY & GG

  4. #348
    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Peter Gammons wrote this a couple days ago:

    Do not underestimate Walt Jocketty and the Reds, especially since former first-round pick Yonder Alonso is not going to play ahead of NL Runs Created leader Joey Votto.
    http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?...=.jsp&c_id=mlb
    I miss Adam Dunn.

  5. #349
    Party like it's 1990 Blitz Dorsey's Avatar
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Kids, this is heating up.

  6. #350
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Personally, I'm still on the fence as to whether we should even be bidders on Lee. A 2 month rental who's going to cost us an arm & a leg that addresses a problem we can address ourselves to a fairly high degree? Sure it would be nice to have Lee, I'm just not sure I see a big enough "need" for it. I'd rather add a complete shortstop or a top notch bullpen arm if we absolutely had to make a deal.
    2014 predictions:
    99-63 WS champs (Cards take 2nd WC, Mil 3rd, Pit 4th, Chi 5th)
    Bruce/Votto neck and neck MVP race (neither takes it)
    Bailey CYA winner
    Hamilton ROY & GG

  7. #351
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    Personally, I'm still on the fence as to whether we should even be bidders on Lee. A 2 month rental who's going to cost us an arm & a leg that addresses a problem we can address ourselves to a fairly high degree? Sure it would be nice to have Lee, I'm just not sure I see a big enough "need" for it. I'd rather add a complete shortstop or a top notch bullpen arm if we absolutely had to make a deal.
    I posted this in another thread...

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    The Reds need to hopelessly complicate things by involving at least four teams...

    Uggla to the Rockies, Johnson and Snyder to the Reds, a badaggle of near ready prospects to Florida and something to the Dbacks so that they can say they didn't sell Snyder for greed...maybe the Reds can use Alonso to the Ms and Lee to somebody and somebody's stuff to Florida to help too...
    The Ms are probably going to get a lot for Lee (compared to what a rental would normally command) because just about any team in a race can afford his payroll space (so he'll get lots of bids on ebay), he's arguably one of the top 5 starters in the majors right now, and everyone now realizes he'll come with two picks if offered arb (well I don;t think Dayton Moore has read Moneyball yet, but he really isn't in the market for Lee anyway)...
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  8. #352
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    I posted this in another thread...

    The Ms are probably going to get a lot for Lee (compared to what a rental would normally command) because just about any team in a race can afford his payroll space (so he'll get lots of bids on ebay), he's arguably one of the top 5 starters in the majors right now, and everyone now realizes he'll come with two picks if offered arb (well I don;t think Dayton Moore has read Moneyball yet, but he really isn't in the market for Lee anyway)...
    I know we'll get 2 picks as well, but I'm not sure those picks would be an upgrade on what we'd have to give away (including Yonder). Especially since I think we'd be selling low on Alonso. His value is near it's lowest due to the injury and his power not returning fully yet.
    2014 predictions:
    99-63 WS champs (Cards take 2nd WC, Mil 3rd, Pit 4th, Chi 5th)
    Bruce/Votto neck and neck MVP race (neither takes it)
    Bailey CYA winner
    Hamilton ROY & GG

  9. #353
    Raaaaaaaandy guttle11's Avatar
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    Personally, I'm still on the fence as to whether we should even be bidders on Lee. A 2 month rental who's going to cost us an arm & a leg that addresses a problem we can address ourselves to a fairly high degree? Sure it would be nice to have Lee, I'm just not sure I see a big enough "need" for it. I'd rather add a complete shortstop or a top notch bullpen arm if we absolutely had to make a deal.
    Orlando Cabrera is the shortstop, that's not going to change unless he gets hurt.

    Second, getting Cliff Lee wouldn't prevent them from bring in a top notch bullpen arm. Alonso is blocked and probably will never play a game for the Reds. Wood is a nice young arm, but after a decade of losing you have to be willing to part with him if you can get a guy that could make you legit World Series contenders, and Lee is that kind of pitcher.

    I'd like the Reds to keep Heisey more than Wood to be honest. If they could get Cliff Lee for Alonso, Wood and parts not named Heisey, it would be a good deal based on the fact that Alonso has almost zero future on the 25 man roster. I thought when he was drafted he was nothing more than trade bait, and with the success of Votto that's only become more obvious. Let's go for it. And with the Reds recent draft history, I trust them to find good prospects with the sandwich pick and the Yankees or Red Sox first rounder.
    "I saw Wedding Crashers accidentally. I bought a ticket for Grizzly Man and went into the wrong theater. After an hour, I figured I was in the wrong theater, but I kept waiting. Thatís the thing about bear attacks. They come when you least expect it."-Dwight K. Schrute

  10. #354
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    If I am the Mariners, I certainly want more than an Alonso/Smoak/Ramos type of player as the 'centerpiece' of the trade. With all due respect to each guy, who may have bright futures or not (I am not sold on Ramos at all as a guy who can hit)..... these guys are all struggling mightily at their respective levels right now. Not a single one of them has an OPS of .700 at their current level and Ramos isn't even at .600.

  11. #355
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    Personally, I'm still on the fence as to whether we should even be bidders on Lee. A 2 month rental who's going to cost us an arm & a leg that addresses a problem we can address ourselves to a fairly high degree? Sure it would be nice to have Lee, I'm just not sure I see a big enough "need" for it. I'd rather add a complete shortstop or a top notch bullpen arm if we absolutely had to make a deal.
    First of all, I wish everyone would stop posting about adding a shortstop. It's not happening. Whether you like Cabrera or not, his teammates and the organization clearly love him. He's not going anywhere this season.

    The team has needs in the starting rotation, bullpen and possibly left field (if Gomes continues to struggle). I suspect they're going to continue to tinker to try to address the bullpen issues and maybe jump in on someone at the deadline when the price is cheap. But the big impact piece is a starting pitcher -- especially if that pitcher is someone like Cliff Lee. You're talking a huge difference-maker. If you can add that piece -- even for just two months -- by trading a so-so prospect blocked by your best player, a tweener outfield prospect (Heisey) and marginal pitching prospects, you do it before Seattle changes its mind.

    The object of this game is to make the playoffs and win the world series. This team finally has a chance. If ever there was a team perfectly positioned to go for it, it's this Reds team.

  12. #356
    Member dunner13's Avatar
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    I would have no problem with walt giving up Alonso, Mesc and Wood. to get Lee. If he can do it for less then that then he will have made a great trade in my mind. I know everyone loves travis wood but lets just remember how much everyone loved stewart and roenike last year, anyone want to take back that trade now?

  13. #357
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    If I am the Mariners, I certainly want more than an Alonso/Smoak/Ramos type of player as the 'centerpiece' of the trade. With all due respect to each guy, who may have bright futures or not (I am not sold on Ramos at all as a guy who can hit)..... these guys are all struggling mightily at their respective levels right now. Not a single one of them has an OPS of .700 at their current level and Ramos isn't even at .600.
    Z can afford to wait a little for the big payoff so he's probably viewing his return in terms of true talent rather than current struggles...

    That said, I think the eye is toward improving the 2011 25man roster.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  14. #358
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Quote Originally Posted by guttle11 View Post
    Orlando Cabrera is the shortstop, that's not going to change unless he gets hurt.
    I agree. But I'm sure the Reds would listen if a total package SS was available, not that one likely will be.

    Second, getting Cliff Lee wouldn't prevent them from bring in a top notch bullpen arm. Alonso is blocked and probably will never play a game for the Reds. Wood is a nice young arm, but after a decade of losing you have to be willing to part with him if you can get a guy that could make you legit World Series contenders, and Lee is that kind of pitcher.
    I know it wouldn't prevent us from getting a pen arm...but we'd have less chips to deal with after a Lee trade. And as for World Series contenders...I think we ARE one already. And trading away a promising young LEFT HANDED prospect like Wood only hurts our chances in furture years. I don't want a "one year and done" playoff run. Even if it gets us a world series ring. I want sustained success. That means not trading away lots of promising young prospects for a 2 month rental. If we had an abundance of left handed starting pitching prospects...sure (which is why I'm not that hesitant to deal Yonder...he's blocked and we have other candidates in the minors to step into his shoes too).

    I'd like the Reds to keep Heisey more than Wood to be honest. If they could get Cliff Lee for Alonso, Wood and parts not named Heisey, it would be a good deal based on the fact that Alonso has almost zero future on the 25 man roster. Let's go for it.
    I think we should be able to get MORE than 2 months of lee for Wood & Yonder. But let's say we DO make that deal...what's the rotation for the last 2 months? Who gets sent down to the minors? Who gets sent to the pen? Who gets kicked OUT of the pen to make room for an ex-starter being added to the pen? How much of an improvement is Lee over say Volquez starting? 2 wins? 4 wins? 8 wins? Are 8 wins worth trading away Yonder and Wood? That's my line of thinking. Getting Lee doesn't assure us of a playoff spot or a WS berth and certainly not a title. I'm sure it'll improve our odds, but I think a solid pen arm would improve them MORE than Lee would.
    2014 predictions:
    99-63 WS champs (Cards take 2nd WC, Mil 3rd, Pit 4th, Chi 5th)
    Bruce/Votto neck and neck MVP race (neither takes it)
    Bailey CYA winner
    Hamilton ROY & GG

  15. #359
    Party like it's 1990 Blitz Dorsey's Avatar
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    If Cabrera continues to play awful (not saying he will) ... why would we completely discount the idea that the organization will at least look to explore the possibility of trading for a SS? Why would we automatically rule that out? Cabrera could be the backup and Janish could go back to AAA (or could be waived if he's out of options). I know O-Cab is making $3 million this year, but the Reds' brass appears willing to go "all in" this year, at least to some extent. For example...

    The starting rotation looks pretty good right now. And there's the chance we're going to add a healthy Edinson Volquez which would be huge. There is also the chance Aroldis Chapman will join the rotation for the stretch run (although it appears he will begin in the bullpen when he's eventually called up). We also have Homer Bailey on the shelf. Arroyo is having his second-best second and Cueto is having a career year. Despite all of that, the Reds are looking to trade for the best starting pitcher (or player, period) on the market in Cliff Lee. Starting pitching isn't even a weakness for once and we're looking to add Cliff Lee. Not a second-tier guy, but the best player on the market by far. Think about that for a second.

    So, if Jocketty thinks he can get a SS and won't have to sell the farm to do so, I wouldn't completely discount it. I certainly don't expect it to happen, but there is a chance it will (course, I didn't think Cabrera would be a black hole at the plate in addition to being average-at-best defensively ... I knew his D was shaky but thought he would hit pretty well in GABP ... not even close).

  16. #360
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: Cliff Lee

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    If I am the Mariners, I certainly want more than an Alonso/Smoak/Ramos type of player as the 'centerpiece' of the trade. With all due respect to each guy, who may have bright futures or not (I am not sold on Ramos at all as a guy who can hit)..... these guys are all struggling mightily at their respective levels right now. Not a single one of them has an OPS of .700 at their current level and Ramos isn't even at .600.
    I agree, I am prepared that if the Reds land Lee, there will be a name off the MLB roster moved that will suprise us...and I have no idea who it will be.


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