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Thread: The nosedive begins

  1. #31
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    Re: The nosedive begins

    Quote Originally Posted by TheBigLebowski View Post
    Why are we "in trouble" with Volquez? Sorry, but you're gonna have to defend that one, brother.
    I'll defend that. Because Volquez just came off TJ surgery. Name a pitcher who had TJ surgery and came back effectively the next season?

    • Nick Adenhart
      Brian Anderson[9]
      Rick Ankiel [10] (converted to outfielder)
      Andy Ashby [11]
      Mike Aviles (shortstop)
      Luis Ayala [12]
      Brandon Backe [13]
      Danys Baez [14]
      Luke Bailey (minor leaguer)
      Rocco Baldelli [15] (outfielder)
      Rod Beck [16]
      Erik Bedard [17]
      Ronald Belisario
      Francis Beltran [18]
      Jeff Bennett [19]
      Kris Benson [20]
      Adam Bernero [21]
      Dellin Betances (minor leaguer)
      Jeff Bianchi (minor leaguer)
      Brent Billingsley [22]
      Joe Borchard (outfielder)
      Bill Bray
      Dewon Brazelton
      Doug Brocail
      Taylor Buchholz
      Ambiorix Burgos
      A. J. Burnett
      Matt Bush (minor leaguer)
      Paul Byrd
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      Manny Delcarmen
      Ryan Dempster [20]
      Chris Denorfia (outfielder)
      Jorge DePaula
      Joey Devine
      Thomas Diamond (minor leaguer)
      Brendan Donnelly
      Octavio Dotel
      Kyle Drabek (minor leaguer)
      Darren Dreifort
      Phil Dumatrait
      Brian Duensing
      Adam Eaton
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      Clint Everts (minor leaguer)
      Willie Eyre
      Ryan Feierabend
      Scott Feldman[23]
      Jesse Foppert
      Chad Fox (three times)
      John Franco
      Frank Francisco
      Éric Gagné [20]
      Jaime García
      Luis Gonzalez (outfielder)
      Mike González
      Tom Gordon [20]
      Rusty Greer (outfielder)
      Lee Gronkiewicz
      Angel Guzman
      Nick Hagadone (minor leaguer)
      Mike Hampton
      Sean Henn
      Pat Hentgen
      Runelvys Hernández
      Shawn Hill (twice)
      Matt Holliday (outfielder)
      Norris Hopper (outfielder)
      Alan Horne (minor leaguer)
      Tim Hudson
      Philip Humber
      Todd Hundley (catcher)
      Eric Hurley
      César Izturis (infielder)
      Jason Isringhausen
      Tommy John
      Kelly Johnson (infielder)
      Josh Johnson
      Steve Karsay
      Jimmy Key
      Josh Kinney
      Billy Koch [20]
      Bobby Korecky
      Hong-Chih Kuo (twice)
      Luis Lebron
      Cory Lidle
      Jon Lieber [20]
      Brad Lincoln (minor leaguer)
      Jesse Litsch[24]
      Mike Lincoln (twice)
      Francisco Liriano
      Rodrigo Lopez
      Matt Mantei
      Shaun Marcum
      Scott Mathieson (twice)
      Joe Mays
      Macay McBride
      Seth McClung
      Jake McGee (minor leaguer)
      Dustin McGowan
      Mark McLemore
      Jon Meloan
      Zach Miner
      Sergio Mitre
      Paul Molitor (infielder)
      Matt Morris [20]
      Peter Moylan
      Xavier Nady (twice; outfielder)
      Tim Naehring (infielder)
      Joe Nathan
      Pat Neshek
      Brian Norton (javelin)
      John Odom
      Russ Ortiz
      Josh Outman
      Juan Padilla
      Jarrod Parker (minor leaguer)
      John Parrish
      Carl Pavano
      Omar Poveda (minor leaguer)
      Scott Proctor
      Bill Pulsipher
      Chris Ray [14][20]
      Carlos Quentin (outfielder)
      Britt Reames
      Matt Reno
      Al Reyes
      Anthony Reyes
      Arthur Rhodes
      Jose Rijo (thrice)
      Matt Riley (thrice)
      Ricardo Rincón
      David Riske
      Nate Robertson
      Fernando Rodney
      Kenny Rogers
      Francisco Rosario
      B. J. Ryan
      Ángel Sánchez[25] (infielder)
      Aníbal Sánchez
      Humberto Sánchez
      Scott Schoeneweis
      Jae Seo
      Alfredo Simon
      Andy Sisco
      John Smoltz [20]
      Kyle Snyder
      Joakim Soria
      Rafael Soriano
      Tim Spooneybarger
      Denny Stark (twice)
      Eric Stults (now plays in Japan)
      Junichi Tazawa
      Clete Thomas (outfielder)
      Brian Tollberg
      Wade Townsend (minor leaguer)
      Merkin Valdez
      Rick van den Hurk
      Óscar Villarreal
      Edinson Volquez
      Billy Wagner
      Paul Wagner
      Tyler Walker
      David Wells
      Jake Westbrook
      Scott Williamson
      C.J. Wilson
      Brian Wilson
      Vance Wilson (twice; catcher)
      Mark Wohlers
      Randy Wolf
      Kerry Wood [20]
      Mark Worrell
      Jaret Wright
      Tyler Yates (twice)
      Matt Young
      Ryan Young (javelin)
      Mike Zagurski
      Víctor Zambrano (twice)
      Jeff Zimmerman (twice)
      Jordan Zimmermann


    A.J. Burnett had success is the only pitcher on the list who saw success the year after TJ surgery. The rest regained success after two years, if ever again. Counting on Volquez to be reliable, never the less an ace, wouldn't be a smart choice.

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  3. #32
    The Smiling Side AintlifeGrande's Avatar
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    Re: The nosedive begins

    I take it most of those pitchers named had the tj surgery midway to the latter part of their career's.Volquez strength is that he had it done at an early age.

  4. #33
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    Re: The nosedive begins

    IF we lose these next to games and get swept we finish this daunting road trip 5-6, which if you told me beforehand we would go 5-6 on the roadtrip and be tied for 1st at the all-star break I would have taken it in a heartbeat.

    IF we lose 5-3 last night the world isn't over, there is no nosedive, its just another loss.

    Why not stay positive, it makes the season twice a much fun.

  5. #34
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    Re: The nosedive begins

    I know this is a little late, but the nosedive crap everybody has been talking about has been said many times this season already. When the Reds were 7-11 they went on a nice streak. When the Reds got swept by Seattle, they then turned around and swept Oakland. Now the Reds have dropped two in Philly. If things stay the same Colorado better look out after the all star break because the Reds will be due. Oh and by the way Cincinatti is 5-4 so far on an 11 game roadtrip, that has to score well on the golf thread that many people read. Too much worry going around here.
    "There are high fastballs and then theres Chapman's high fastball" -Chris Welsh

  6. #35
    All work and no play..... Vottomatic's Avatar
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    Re: The nosedive begins

    Quote Originally Posted by will5979 View Post
    Halladay and Hamels tonight and tomorrow vs. rookies. We are going to be swept and lose this road trip, and probably be in a 1st place tie at the break even though just 2 days ago we were 12 games over and had, HAD a 4 game lead. We are pretenders and I'm tired of living in denial, its not just a river in Egypt. Last night's loss was too much for me to take, twice in a season now we've had to experience this, can't we cut our losses with this fatass so called closer we have?

    I can't see how we will rebound after this...I really think this is the beginning of the end for our run, sure we may finish with a winning record, but whoopty doo when we could win the division.
    After reading your post, I made a noose, threw it over the rafters, and stood on a chair with my head in that noose.

    Then I realized..........tomorrow is another day.
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

    "Man do I miss the days where were didn't need a calculator and an encyclopedia of baseball metrics to enjoy a baseball game ... - MikeS21" - 8/2/12 game thread

  7. #36
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    Re: The nosedive begins

    Quote Originally Posted by bshall2105 View Post
    I know this is a little late, but the nosedive crap everybody has been talking about has been said many times this season already. When the Reds were 7-11 they went on a nice streak. When the Reds got swept by Seattle, they then turned around and swept Oakland. Now the Reds have dropped two in Philly. If things stay the same Colorado better look out after the all star break because the Reds will be due. Oh and by the way Cincinatti is 5-4 so far on an 11 game roadtrip, that has to score well on the golf thread that many people read. Too much worry going around here.
    Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? :
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

    "Man do I miss the days where were didn't need a calculator and an encyclopedia of baseball metrics to enjoy a baseball game ... - MikeS21" - 8/2/12 game thread

  8. #37
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    Re: The nosedive begins

    Quote Originally Posted by AintlifeGrande View Post
    I take it most of those pitchers named had the tj surgery midway to the latter part of their career's.Volquez strength is that he had it done at an early age.
    I believe one of the issues with TJ surgery is that it takes a while for pitchers to regain their control. The rehab associated with TJ actually strengthens most pitchers and they throw a bit harder (1-3 mph) after rehab. It takes 9-12 months post-surgery to see this and EV is in this range. This is the good news. It takes longer, because they haven't been pitching for so long, to regain control. It seems to take guys a few months. The rule of thumb is that in a year the pitcher can pitch and throw hard, but that regaining his overall effectiveness is maybe another half a year away. By that measure, EV should be all the way back next Spring.

    Rehab and surgical techniques are constantly improving and every guy is different, so maybe EV is ahead of this schedule (his last rehab outing was very impressive) but counting on a guy who wasn't that pitch efficient before he got hurt to come in immediately after TJ rehab and be a #1 starter is a long shot. We all hope this happens, but the more pessimistic comments are based on the usual time line for pitchers post TJ.

  9. #38
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    Re: The nosedive begins

    Quote Originally Posted by Vottomatic View Post
    Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? :
    No it was over when the Germans nuked the Japs.
    "There are high fastballs and then theres Chapman's high fastball" -Chris Welsh

  10. #39
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    Re: The nosedive begins

    Quote Originally Posted by bshall2105 View Post
    I know this is a little late, but the nosedive crap everybody has been talking about has been said many times this season already. When the Reds were 7-11 they went on a nice streak. When the Reds got swept by Seattle, they then turned around and swept Oakland. Now the Reds have dropped two in Philly. If things stay the same Colorado better look out after the all star break because the Reds will be due. Oh and by the way Cincinatti is 5-4 so far on an 11 game roadtrip, that has to score well on the golf thread that many people read. Too much worry going around here.
    I agree. The Atlanta game (that happend to Leake too, right? He'd be 8-1 at the ASB!) was actually worse IMO because it was earlier in the year before we'd seen the team bounce back. Unfortunately the Reds have had the opportunity to prove that they can come back from this kind of a collapse once already Fortunately, they have proven they can.

    I agree with a previous poster that I am most worried about Rolen's back. So long as he and Votto stay healthy I think the Reds will stay in it.

  11. #40
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    Re: The nosedive begins

    Quote Originally Posted by Vottomatic View Post
    Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? :
    Thank you Senator Blutarsky!

  12. #41
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    Re: The nosedive begins

    Quote Originally Posted by cbowen2112 View Post
    really? a two game losing streak means that the season is over?

    what did these people think when we were 7-11 after the San Diego series?

    if we end up losing this series and are 1 up or tied by the break, we should keep our heads up...here is why:
    • we do not have another 11 game road trip
    • we do not have to go to LA to face the Dodgers
    • we are getting an ace for our staff
    • we have a very young nucleus of talent to build around
    • the free agent market will be pretty good this year
    • we haven't been in first place this long since 1999
    I misspoke about the Dodgers, we do play there. But it comes after the D-Backs series, not a Padres series which it usually seems to fall. We do not go to SD until the second to last series. My bad for thinking we did not go to LA...should have figured.

  13. #42
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    Re: The nosedive begins

    I'm starting to think this team is good enough to win our division, but not quite good enough to get past their first postseason series. The other contenders are just alot stronger than us in certain areas and our offense dumbs itself to death against good teams and good pitchers.

    Might be another year before we're ready.
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

    "Man do I miss the days where were didn't need a calculator and an encyclopedia of baseball metrics to enjoy a baseball game ... - MikeS21" - 8/2/12 game thread

  14. #43
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    Re: The nosedive begins

    Quote Originally Posted by arkimadee View Post
    I learned a valuable lesson last night. I went to the movies last night and when i went in the Reds were up 7-1. In the middle of the movie I grabbed my cell phone and decided to check to see if the Cards lost last night. Well in the process I see the Reds lose 9-7. Talk about making you grumpy for a date. I wanted to chuck the popcorn 5 isles down. I guess morale of the story is to never check a score at the movies. The movie sucked for the rest of the night..
    What movie did you see?
    "Ahh, Jesus, I like him very much, but He no help with curveball." - Serrano. "Are you trying to say Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?" - Harris in Major League (1989)

  15. #44
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    Re: The nosedive begins

    Quote Originally Posted by Vottomatic View Post
    I'm starting to think this team is good enough to win our division, but not quite good enough to get past their first postseason series. The other contenders are just alot stronger than us in certain areas and our offense dumbs itself to death against good teams and good pitchers.

    Might be another year before we're ready.
    Yeah i agree. I will be thrilled just making it to the playoffs this year. Our offense just isnt going to cut it.

    Bruce, stubbs, SS position. 3 big holes in our lineup.

  16. #45
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    Re: The nosedive begins

    Quote Originally Posted by Maker_84 View Post
    this is getting very very very bad
    Your posting? Yes, they do seem to get worse with each one I read from you.
    UNC Tar Heels 2009 National Champions 5 time NCAA Champs
    57, 82, 93, 05, 09
    Go Heels!!!!!


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