This is a first for me, got fired from my job today

[fearofpopvol1]

I'm curious if anyone out there thinks I have a good shot at getting unemployment.

For the record, my boss never spoke with me about any problems. The first verbal warning they claim I was given wasn't given to me by my supervisor, or any supervisor at all, but by someone who was technically, a peer of mine, though in a different department, and it came via cellphone to me while I was at home, not on the clock at work during office hours. The second verbal warning they claim I was given was at the very same time as my first and only written warning, which also didn't come from my boss, nor anyone who worked in my department or my building, but a supervisor in an entirely different department altogether who was someone that I used to have problems with when I was a supervisor, and ranked above him. The first and only time my boss spoke with me was via conference call with this supervisor of another department, claiming he had given me four chances via warnings to stop helping people and that it was his recommendation that I be fired because I'm not trustworthy, and my boss said that he had no choice but to side with the supervisor. This was for helping someone with about six files at the end of the day between 4:50 and 5:00 after I had gotten all of my work done. Nothing in the employee handbook said that there was any rule about helping out co-workers, and there was no unwritten rule about it, as the supervisor who recommended I get fired had asked me to help out other co-workers, which I did...he just didn't want me helping this particular one, for whatever reason isn't clear to me. In fact, none of our conversations were ever made directly clear to me, as he was rather bumbling with his words and never explained things clearly, even back in the days when I was a supervisor and my entire department had problems with him and the work that he was doing.

Shouldn't my boss, at some point in time, have spoken with me and made clear that I was in jeopardy of losing my job for being a team player and helping out others, perhaps found some other things for me to do if I was getting my work done and didn't want to sit around and read a book or go home early without clocking out like other people? Or is there some way for them to spin it to look justified?

I think you have a pretty good case.

You should absolutely apply for unemployment, no matter what. There is nothing to lose. You fill out the info and then your previous employer has to dispute the claim, in writing. If they don't, it's smooth sailing. If they do, then you'll be asked to fill out additional paperwork where you can state your case.

One thing many people don't realize is that while it is true that employers can fire you for pretty much anything (if you live in a state where the law is "at will,") it doesn't mean your termination is a good reason to deny you unemployment benefits, though it can.

A big key is going to be how much proof your employer can provide that you were previously warned about these actions. The Department of Labor really likes to see that the employer gave you a fair chance to correct what you were doing, so long as it's not a major offense (theft for example), which it sounds like you're clear of. From what you have said, the verbal warnings seem pretty meaningless, especially if it didn't come from a figure of authority. They are also harder to prove, but they may have kept a record of it. The written warning is sort of damning, but the fact that it didn't come from your boss is odd. And if that guy previously asked you to help with other employees, that's really strange. The problem is that will be hard to prove and it's sort of their word against yours.

Another important component will be...the company policy (or lack there of) about what you did. Hopefully you still have an employee handbook to refer to.

Even if you lose round 1 and the DOL rules in the company's favor, you can appeal it and force the company to participate in a hearing and someone else will then hear your case, which could be good. Your company find it isn't worth their time to continue. If you lose that, you can appeal it once more and then it goes in front of a panel. I'd advise trying to fight for it to see if you can get it. There is no penalty for being rejected unemployment.

A lot of companies will try to make up reasons to jettison you, but if it's a good company, and they know you didn't do anything wrong, they should just let the unemployment claim go. A lot companies do.

[savafan]

I filed yesterday, so now I wait to see what happens.

[wolfboy]

Not to be nit-picky, but that isn't true. It might be company policy to not give anything more than dates of employment, but it's not the law. Employers can give more information if they choose to do so. There is a myth that employers can't give bad references, that is 100% incorrect. They can give you a bad reference, IF, it's factual or without malice. The issue of slander or defamation comes into play only if your former employer knowingly gives false information that prevents you from gaining future employment. If you were to sue, you'd also have to prove they knowing gave false information to a prospective employer and prove damages (that their reference cost you the position, which no hiring company is going to admit to you), and most states have held harmless laws for employers in this area in any event.

With that said, most companys don't bother, they don't feel like paying the legal bills (even though the employer would probably win 99% of the cases).

There's a lot of incorrect information in this post. It might be time to huddle with your legal department and review the law in this area.


That aside, best of luck sava. I'm very sorry to hear about losing your job. I hope you're able to get back on your feet quickly.

[savafan]

There's a lot of incorrect information in this post. It might be time to huddle with your legal department and review the law in this area.


That aside, best of luck sava. I'm very sorry to hear about losing your job. I hope you're able to get back on your feet quickly.

Me too, as everything, and I mean EVERYTHING right now is just being...stupid. My girlfriend and I live together with our son, and we've both asked Hamilton County JFS to stop the child support order, as it doesn't make sense for part of my money to be going to her when we're living under the same roof and share everything evenly, especially with me not having a job right now, but they won't stop the order unless we get married, which is not what the literature given to us at the time the order was written up said...

*sigh* It's like I can't catch a single break here. On top of that, her grandma died two weeks ago, and her grandfather passed away last night, so it really is like we're under some kind of dark evil spell right now reserved for people in fairy tales or fantasy films.

[Reds4Life]

There's a lot of incorrect information in this post. It might be time to huddle with your legal department and review the law in this area.


That aside, best of luck sava. I'm very sorry to hear about losing your job. I hope you're able to get back on your feet quickly.

Then why don't you enlighten us.

[wolfboy]

Then why don't you enlighten us.

My comment wasn't intended as snark, so please don't take it that way. I don't know the individual circumstances of your situation, nor anyone else's. That being the case, I can't "enlighten" you, nor guide you through the subject. My advice is to seek out an attorney who specializes in employment law to discuss it as per your particular situation - especially if you are disclosing anything beyond opinions about former employees to third parties.

Defamation is a complex topic of law that changes drastically based on particular circumstances and the jurisdiction in which it occurs. There are no hard and fast rules. For example, sometimes malice is the standard, while other times mere negligence is appropriate. Likewise, some jurisdictions require the plaintiff to prove falsity while others do not.

Again, I apologize if it came out as snark. That wasn't intended. I sincerely meant what I said. If you are making decisions in that context, I'd advise you to consult with your attorney, or an attorney in the field.

Sava - I'll keep you in my prayers. I hope a break comes your way real soon.

[savafan]

Signed over my lease today, so I can now officially head back to Cincinnati. Unfortunately this good news was met with news of a good friend's suicide, so it's hard to be excited right now. Also will still need to seek out those job prospects when I get back to the Queen City.

[TRF]

damn sava. you need to get some time away from it all.

[Ghosts of 1990]

Sava, any word from WWR firm yet? PM and let me know

[fearofpopvol1]

Did you unemployment claim go through?

[cincinnati chili]

My comment wasn't intended as snark, so please don't take it that way. I don't know the individual circumstances of your situation, nor anyone else's. That being the case, I can't "enlighten" you, nor guide you through the subject. My advice is to seek out an attorney who specializes in employment law to discuss it as per your particular situation - especially if you are disclosing anything beyond opinions about former employees to third parties.

Defamation is a complex topic of law that changes drastically based on particular circumstances and the jurisdiction in which it occurs. There are no hard and fast rules. For example, sometimes malice is the standard, while other times mere negligence is appropriate. Likewise, some jurisdictions require the plaintiff to prove falsity while others do not.

Again, I apologize if it came out as snark. That wasn't intended. I sincerely meant what I said. If you are making decisions in that context, I'd advise you to consult with your attorney, or an attorney in the field.

Sava - I'll keep you in my prayers. I hope a break comes your way real soon.

The issue of what constitutes defamation can be somewhat complex, but I assume you would agree that there is no "law" in any jurisdiction in this country that prohibits someone from truthfully giving a good or bad reference, correct?

I've done a bit of employment law and I've never heard of any such thing.

I'm also pretty sure that some states (I have no idea about Ohio) have adopted statutory protections for people who give references.

[savafan]

Did you unemployment claim go through?

I haven't heard anything more since I had to fill out more paperwork when they were fighting my initial filing. Finally got my internet service up and running here in Cincinnati now.

[fearofpopvol1]

Still? That is unusual. Usually they have it sorted it out pretty quickly. I would think you'll know real soon.

[Boston Red]

Once you get this all sorted out and put it in the rearview mirror, my guess is it will turn out to be a major blessing. Working at a collections firm must be one of the lowest circles of hell. Obviously your previous employer at least had zero respect for its employees.

Good luck.

[wolfboy]

I assume you would agree that there is no "law" in any jurisdiction in this country that prohibits someone from truthfully giving a good or bad reference, correct?

Sounds good to me, but I don't think I ever questioned that. The original post dealt with more complex issues such as degree of fault and burden of proof.

The issue of what constitutes defamation can be somewhat complex

This was the point I tried to make. This subject is complex and one should consult with an employment attorney if they encounter it in a practical setting. No more, no less.