O'Neill, Daniels, Larkin, Jones & Stillwell: Past Thoughts and Observations?

[membengal]

I guess I have always been loathe to point to a performance spike SOLELY and say, "Hey! PEDs!"

In fact, in O'Neill's case, he did NOT start hitting 40 HRs a year in NY, but rather was allowed to finally be the hitter he always wanted to be (perhaps the hitter that his body needed to be). For a big guy, he was a line-drive hitter who liked to use all fields. That's what he did in NY, to that organization's credit, they allowed him to be who he was as a player. His top HR year was in 1991 with 28 (that was with the Reds). In NY, he settled into being an 18-25 HR a year guy. Who was finally allowed to hit for average and use all fields. Probably why his doubles spiked and one of the drivers for his higher OPS'. As did his taking far more walks.

I always wish that had happened in Cincy...

O'Neill's career stats page from baseballreference.com:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...;neipa01.shtml

[edabbs44]

I guess I have always been loathe to point to a performance spike SOLELY and say, "Hey! PEDs!"

In fact, in O'Neill's case, he did NOT start hitting 40 HRs a year in NY, but rather was allowed to finally be the hitter he always wanted to be (perhaps the hitter that his body needed to be). For a big guy, he was a line-drive hitter who liked to use all fields. That's what he did in NY, to that organization's credit, they allowed him to be who he was as a player. His top HR year was in 1991 with 28 (that was with the Reds). In NY, he settled into being an 18-25 HR a year guy. Who was finally allowed to hit for average and use all fields. Probably why his doubles spiked and one of the drivers for his higher OPS'. As did his taking far more walks.

I always wish that had happened in Cincy...

O'Neill's career stats page from baseballreference.com:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...;neipa01.shtml

Anything is possible, I guess, but I don't think my opinion is due solely a spike in performance. It has to do with the magnitude of the spike (never hitting over .276, then ages 30-35 hitting from .300 to .359), the fact that he went to a place where it is proven that steroids were a huge part of the culture (IIRC, the Yankees have had the most proven user players), and the fact that the spike coincided with his arrival in NY and in his 30s.

I'm just very skepitcal of situations like this in the 90s. The Reds got blasted for that trade when not many people knew what was going on behidn the scenes, just like Boston did with Bagwell. Pretty unfair.

[membengal]

I guess the easier explanation for me is what we know, that O'Neill and Piniella were oil and water and that O'Neill responded to a change of manager and scenery as opposed to ascribing things to O'Neill that no one has ever accused him of.

[GIDP]

I wouldnt be surprised if it came out O'Neil was juiced. Not many players would surprise me but he would surprise me less than some others.

[TRF]

Actually, it would shock me. He went from a decent hitter's park to one designed for LH's. His HR total's didn't spike though, in fact his best HR year was 1991, with the Reds. The only significant change was in his BA, which fueled a higher OBP & SLG. Basically, he hit more singles.

[GIDP]

Actually, it would shock me. He went from a decent hitter's park to one designed for LH's. His HR total's didn't spike though, in fact his best HR year was 1991, with the Reds. The only significant change was in his BA, which fueled a higher OBP & SLG. Basically, he hit more singles.

I wouldnt be surprised if he was using them in Cincinnati. He did start hitting a ton of doubles in NY. He hit over 30 once in Cincy (36) and only hit under 35 3 times in his 9 years in NY. He probably didnt but if it was to come out I would probably look back and say "you know what it does make sense"

Also its total speculation on my part, I've never seen anything on the subject.

[membengal]

Actually, it would shock me. He went from a decent hitter's park to one designed for LH's. His HR total's didn't spike though, in fact his best HR year was 1991, with the Reds. The only significant change was in his BA, which fueled a higher OBP & SLG. Basically, he hit more singles.

Yup. A few more doubles too. But, mostly, he was allowed to be who he wanted to be in NY as a hitter. And the Yankees benefited.

[TRF]

I wouldnt be surprised if he was using them in Cincinnati. He did start hitting a ton of doubles in NY. He hit over 30 once in Cincy (36) and only hit under 35 3 times in his 9 years in NY. He probably didnt but if it was to come out I would probably look back and say "you know what it does make sense"

Also its total speculation on my part, I've never seen anything on the subject.

It really doesn't. With some players, sure, but not him. His body didn't bulk up, his head didn't grow three sizes. But more importantly, he didn't see a Palmeiro like spike in his HR totals. A guy using PEDs, if he suddenly started hitting 30 points higher, will see his HR's increase. his didn't.

Not a PED user. Sabo? probably.

[edabbs44]

It really doesn't. With some players, sure, but not him. His body didn't bulk up, his head didn't grow three sizes. But more importantly, he didn't see a Palmeiro like spike in his HR totals. A guy using PEDs, if he suddenly started hitting 30 points higher, will see his HR's increase. his didn't.

Not a PED user. Sabo? probably.

There are plenty of users who don't spike in HRs. Not sure that is proof positive.

Here are some interesting excerpts from a Baseball Digest article in 2001. Not proof of anything, but additional smoke maybe.

From the beginning of his professional career, O'Neill said, he realized the benefits of weight lifting.

"When I came up with Cincinnati, I was so skinny," said O'Neill, who was about 185 pounds then, compared with his current listed weight of 215. "I was looking around at what I wanted to do and who I wanted to be in the game. The difference between (everybody else) and me was that they were so much stronger. So I tried all I could to lift and become strong."

O'Neill, who also uses performance enhancers such as creatine, said, "I haven't put on a lot of fat. I put on some strength. I found out over the years what exercises helped more than others."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...0/ai_74090335/

[membengal]

edabbs, serious question:

Is it really so hard to believe the scores of sourced material on O'Neill/Piniella and instead try and generate another reason for the Reds failing to fully develop O'Neill? Even to the point of besmirching his reputation?

I am kinda puzzled by your doggedness on this. There has never been any suggestion, anywhere, from anyone, that O'Neill was a PED type. Nothing anecdotal, nothing circumstantial, nothing empirical. Nothing that I am aware of. What is the point of trying to sully his reputation (which this kind of allegation, even on a message board, does)? Is it because the Reds front office never makes mistakes?

I don't get it.

ETA: Did you look at his career stats? Basically, he hit more singles, a few more doubles, and drew more walks in NY. Which speaks to the approach he was finally allowed to have as a hitter. I just don't see a PED smoking gun anywhere, of any type in those numbers. Not when we have reams of material about how tough it was for him to be what he needed to be in Cincy...

Double ETA: I have always been decidedly uncomfortable blatantly accusing individuals of PEDs in the absence of tests or other actual evidence other than numbers. Just doesn't seem right to me. To the extent that is where this conversation is being steered, I will step out.

[TRF]

i give up.

PED user. obviously. I mean 22 year old kids almost never gain weight by working out.

As for the creatine, big deal. it wasn't a banned substance then, wasn't banned for years in baseball. He's never had his name leaked in any investigation, it's never been rumored he was a PED user, and there is a TON of evidence that shows the shift to a different park, one designed for LH's to HIT HR's IN, didn't increase his HR total.

So what was his PED? fish oil? did he slow down time for better pitch recognition? magic beans?

obviously a PED user.

edabbs, no offense, but dumbest assertion ever on this board. completely without merit. it's muckraking posting.

[_Sir_Charles_]

What scouting reports, doug?

This was pre-internet and, unless you have an "in" in Cincinnati no one has been privy to, most of those were destroyed long ago.

As to numbers, sure, Larkin's the better player, but Stillwell was extremely young for all levels and played SS like a demon-- or at least that's what was being told to Red fans at that time.

Larkin, meanwhile, was much larger, with an odd desire to only play SS and not 2B (thereby getting rid of an aging Ronny Oester), meaning he wasn't a "team player". (There were rumblings of an attitude, and, in Cincinnati, that was difficult to deal with, especially for a young black man.)

As a kid, I wanted both to play, with Larkin moving to 2B to make the best defensive middle infield in the game. I also really liked Davis and Jones (hustle!), but struggled to like O'Neill (flighty and angry, he'd vaporlock in crucial at-bats, seemingly every night) or Daniels (great talent, lousy work ethic).

Of course, I thought ED was going to re-write the record books, too, as a Willy Mays-like CF god. I thought he'd eventually steal 100 bases in a season and perhaps hit 50 homers in either that or another season as well. And play GG CF. For a decade.

Sigh.

At least Larkin worked out.

Well, you and I are on the same page. The only thing different was the fact that I simply didn't follow the minors back then, so I was going by what Marty said. But once they reached the bigs...I was right there with you.

BTW...what ever happened to Kal? Did he just decide to hang them up?

[edabbs44]

Ignoring the load of circumstantial evidence doesn't make it not true. Here's another creatine and baseball article that has one common theme throughout. See if you can guess what most of these names have in common.

Then there is creatine (pronounced KREE uh teen), a nutritional and body building supplement, used by more than 100 big leaguers who lift weights. Caminiti leaves this alone; he was taking a scheduled week off from the product many in the body-building industry tout as the safe, all-natural, legal alternative to steroids.

The 255-pound McGwire, whose frequent injuries led to criticism that he had bulked up too much, is widely regarded as the strongest man in the majors. McGwire says it's hard to say how much weightlifting has improved his power over the years; he hit 49 home runs as a rookie in 1987, long before he became a year-round lifter in '91 and began using products by Champion Nutrition, including Power Creatine, three years ago.

Lee Haney, the eight-time Mr. Olympia who retired in 1991 and now trains athletes in Atlanta, says he has recommended creatine to many of his clients, including boxer Evander Holyfield and Gary Sheffield of the Florida Marlins.

Mackie Shilstone, the sports performance and nutrition expert whose clients include the San Francisco Giants, prescribes it as part of his official training regimen. Teams such as the A's and Cardinals order creatine in bulk. In addition to McGwire, Anderson, Piazza, Sheffield and Caminiti, its advocates include Giambi, Jose Canseco, Eric Karros and Ryan Klesko.

The Orioles' Anderson says he's taken creatine for five years. "The thing is, you can take creatine and protein supplements and have the perfect diet, but none of that matters if you don't train hard. There's really no magic to this. You have to lift heavy and you have to lift hard and you have to be consistent. Your body only improves slowly over time. But if you make tiny improvements, after time you'll have a big improvement."

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/bbw/2...ive-pumped.htm

I think we may be able to say with some confidence that there was some sort of relation between creatine and illegal PED usage in baseball, if this article is accurate. It's a virtual who's who of users.

I'm not on a witch hunt or anything like that, but this is fairly relevant to the discussion since we are talking about the potential mismanagement, eventual trade and giving up on a guy who bloomed later than many other players. The same conversation has been had for years about the Sox trade of Bagwell.

And saying this is the dumbest assertion ever on this board is a little bit over the top. You may not agree, which is fine because this is my opinion based upon my observations. But to not see any sort of potential for this being true would easily top my assertion for that title.

[Roy Tucker]

I'll chime on the "you had to be there" on the Stilwell-Larkin choce. I think retro-fitting modern day stats against the choice makes it more clear as to what Larkin could be, but in the days of Sporting News BA-HR-RBI stats, no Internet, and gee-whiz press, it appeared to be a toss-up. And yes, I'll admit to being a Stilwell fan.

I thought when O'Neill went to the Yankees, he was going to get chewed up by the NY press. I thought if he he was too tightly wrapped for Cincinnati, then he'd get killed by the NY writers and just implode.

I kept thinking that Daniels was going to come around and hated that he went to LA.

Obviously, I'm wrong about a lot of things.

[westofyou]

I'll chime on the "you had to be there" on the Stilwell-Larkin choce. I think retro-fitting modern day stats against the choice makes it more clear as to what Larkin could be, but in the days of Sporting News BA-HR-RBI stats, no Internet, and gee-whiz press, it appeared to be a toss-up. And yes, I'll admit to being a Stilwell fan.

I thought when O'Neill went to the Yankees, he was going to get chewed up by the NY press. I thought if he he was too tightly wrapped for Cincinnati, then he'd get killed by the NY writers and just implode.

I kept thinking that Daniels was going to come around and hated that he went to LA.

Obviously, I'm wrong about a lot of things.

Stillwell was also a legacy, he grew up around the game, listen to all the accolades heaped on players who have that going for them these days, back then it had even more cache... can anyone say Dale Berra?