He took creatine. who cares?
He took creatine. who cares?
Raisel Ghul, the Demon's Head
And he only played in NY while in his 30s.
I'm not sure that we are only talking about a "few more singles and doubles" here. I know it's popular to think that it was Cincy's fault that he didn't blossom in Ohio, but that thought process also came to be before we really knew what was going on in baseball.
Sounds like a game I played in school called MatBall.
Another good comparison to Larkin-Stillwell (and I liked the Mez-Grandal comp Benihana offered in place of my Yonder-Grandal comp), might be Bailey vs Leake. Both first rounders. Bailey, the HS kid with all the tools, a bit rushed. Leake the polished college kid that everyone sees perform at a terrific level instantly.
If Bailey could bring back a Danny Jackson type impact player, I think everyone would be happy at this point.
As for Kal Daniels - here is his legacy, per quotes from this thread:
Kal Daniels was a pleasure to watch hit, pure pure pure. He appeared to have the sam interest and drive for baseball that I do for having my fingernails removed with pliers. I think that is one player that walked away from a crazy amount of money, because he had talent.Daniels (great talent, lousy work ethic)Stillwell had obp and D. Larkin had "attitude" issues and a great bat. (Similar to Daniels.)As a kid, I loved Kal Daniels, although I was always weary of his terrible temper/attitude problems. He was almost like a mean-spirited Jay Bruce, being a highly-touted corner OF that tore through the minors and into a starting role in Cincy at age 22. Hopefully Bruce won't go out the same way ol' Kalvoski did. FWIW, I don't think that he will.I remember yelling at my radio when Daniels got traded. He was my favorite hitter on that team, just a beast with the bat.As for the other guys, Kal Daniels could hit falling out of bed- but it looked like he fielded the same way. I always thought Reds LF's had a hard time fielding in that stadium because LF was the sun field. Fans, at the time, got on Foster, Daniels, Dunn (LF is sun field in new park too), Gomes...they are in LF for a reason. Daniels also had terrible knees and over time that caught up with him. He should been a DH, but never really got a chance to do that.Daniels was an unbelievable hitter, but both he and Larkin couldn't get on the field every day.Essentially, Daniels ran himself out of town with not near enough consistent effort and health. But geez, could he hit. Never seen anything quite like Kal Daniels on one of his tears.What if Kal Daniels put in some effort? What if they left Paul O'Neil alone and let him be what he was?
They were all great athletes, they were all good hitters, they were all great defenders. (Except daniels who could have been). People get excited about the young talent on the Reds now, look at 1987 Reds top 2. Davis was only 25 Daniels was 23.
G AB R H 2B 3 HR RBI SB CS BB SO AVG OBP SLG OPS
Daniels 108 368 73 123 24 1 26 64 26 8 60 62 .334 . 429 .617 1046
Davis 129 474 120 139 23 4 37 100 50 6 84 134 .293 .399 .593 992BTW...what ever happened to Kal? Did he just decide to hang them up?He's like a Barry Sanders - Albert Belle hybrid. The sentiment I don't get is that people say, "if he could have focused more, if he could have worked harder", etc, he was already a beast! It seems he never has gotten his due, and perhaps its his fault - he sounds like a prickly guy, I guess.I kept thinking that Daniels was going to come around and hated that he went to LA.
I'd love to hear Barry Larkin, or god forbid Tracy Jones, talk about his impressions of Kal from those days. He still ended up with 5 mil for his career, but I guess knee surgery wasn't what it is or something. A followup interview needs to be done, I demand it! He has to be a top 50 TALENT in Reds history.
Anyway, I liked this from Cooper:
Pretty cool point of view now and it must have been exciting then to see all that athleticism in the org. Hopefully now is an equal or better parallel to those times with Yorman, Hamilton, Didi, an of course those in Cincy now.What was clear was how much the Reds loved to draft guys who could run. If you couldn't run -you didn't play. Every guy they brought up (save a catcher or 2) could flat out run. Daniels, Davis, Jones, Larkin, O'neil, Sabo, Harris, Milner, Redus, Roomes, Hatcher, Householder, Duncan. The exception was a guy who couldn't run -and if he couldn't he better hit a ton. This to was a product of the times. When most of the these guys were drafted -the stolen base was considered a viable weapon. They ran fast and played really hard. When they hit it was fun to watch cause they flew.
As for O'Neill, I'm dubious on every player, even those like Griffey, although I still allow my heart to believe the best. My radar does go off for O'Neill when you see the jumps, so I'll stick up for edabbs, he's not out of line for supposing it may be true. We cannot be sure though. Every player has to answer to these questions, unfortunately, for the games sake.
Beyond all that, I thought Roberto Kelley was a damn fine player for the Reds, and Yanks - it wasn't a bad pickup. It just worked out for NY, who loves to rub people's noses in it anyway. F'm.
It doesn't surprise me to hear that Tracy Jones lacked the intelligence to play baseball.
Last edited by mdccclxix; 07-21-2010 at 06:30 PM.
2015 Rotation: Under Construction
No, I remember Davis' too. I was referring to O'Neill's two games before that.
2 quick thoughts:
1. I did not mean to imply Tracy Jones was not intelligent -clearly the guy is pretty smart. He just didn't play smart when it came to -he ran into walls on an almost daily basis. He never was gonna make it long term with that approach, but all the football fans loved it.
2. The ball the Eric Davis backed up Hatcher on and then threw a strike to Sabo was hit it to left center...not right center.
As for Paul O. Their are numerous stories about a negative relationship between player and manager. There is no evidence that he took steroids.
Van Slyke then. You got me.
IIRC, there was plenty of whispers during O'Neil's .350+ BA season of PEDs. (Same with most of the Yankees that season.)
I'd also say edabb's circumstantial evidence is pretty compelling:
1. O'Neil's competitive drive and personality
2. Known PED users on Yankee team
3. O'Neil's slugging surge for New York well past his 30th birthday after years of pedestrian numbers with the Reds (60+ points that include those supposed waning years that typically drag down career numbers)
I do think Pinella is partly to blame for O'Neil's struggles in Cincinnati, but not worth that much.
"You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
-- Christy Matthewson
"Show me a good loser and I'll show you an idiot."
-- Leo Durocher
The O'Neill stuff can be explained by looking at the stats.
When he was with Cincy his BAbip was .279 (essentially he was hit unlucky as the typical BAbip is .300). He goes to NY and his BAbip goes to .320 and the year he really got hit lucky was 1994. His BAbip was .378. When that kind of thing occurs -you just flipped your luck.
Doug Dirt is correct -there was not a power surge. There was a luck surge.
All in all, his luck was really bad in Cincy and then became really good in NY and that evened out his career average to be about average when it comes to BAbip (.303). I really think you're pushing it when you infer that it was PED based. Sure as heck doesn't look like it to me.
Did his LD% change when he moved from Cincy to NY?
"You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."