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Thread: O'Neill, Daniels, Larkin, Jones & Stillwell: Past Thoughts and Observations?

  1. #46
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: O'Neill, Daniels, Larkin, Jones & Stillwell: Past Thoughts and Observations?

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Ignoring the load of circumstantial evidence doesn't make it not true. Here's another creatine and baseball article that has one common theme throughout. See if you can guess what most of these names have in common.

    http://www.usatoday.com/sports/bbw/2...ive-pumped.htm

    I think we may be able to say with some confidence that there was some sort of relation between creatine and illegal PED usage in baseball, if this article is accurate. It's a virtual who's who of users.

    I'm not on a witch hunt or anything like that, but this is fairly relevant to the discussion since we are talking about the potential mismanagement, eventual trade and giving up on a guy who bloomed later than many other players. The same conversation has been had for years about the Sox trade of Bagwell.

    And saying this is the dumbest assertion ever on this board is a little bit over the top. You may not agree, which is fine because this is my opinion based upon my observations. But to not see any sort of potential for this being true would easily top my assertion for that title.
    Brady Anderson out of nowhere hit 50 HR's that's a spike in performance that screams aberration. O'Neill benefited from a few more singles and doubles in a park designed for LH's. He benefited from coaches that wanted him to be what he was as a hitter. And there is far more evidence of that, than a silly PED argument that has ZERO foundation.

    He took creatine. who cares?
    Suck it up cupcake.

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  3. #47
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    Re: O'Neill, Daniels, Larkin, Jones & Stillwell: Past Thoughts and Observations?

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    Brady Anderson out of nowhere hit 50 HR's that's a spike in performance that screams aberration. O'Neill benefited from a few more singles and doubles in a park designed for LH's. He benefited from coaches that wanted him to be what he was as a hitter. And there is far more evidence of that, than a silly PED argument that has ZERO foundation.

    He took creatine. who cares?
    His top 8 BA seasons came in NY. His top 7 OBP seasons also, as well as his top 5 SLG seasons.

    And he only played in NY while in his 30s.

    I'm not sure that we are only talking about a "few more singles and doubles" here. I know it's popular to think that it was Cincy's fault that he didn't blossom in Ohio, but that thought process also came to be before we really knew what was going on in baseball.

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    Re: O'Neill, Daniels, Larkin, Jones & Stillwell: Past Thoughts and Observations?

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    His top 8 BA seasons came in NY. His top 7 OBP seasons also, as well as his top 5 SLG seasons.

    And he only played in NY while in his 30s.

    I'm not sure that we are only talking about a "few more singles and doubles" here. I know it's popular to think that it was Cincy's fault that he didn't blossom in Ohio, but that thought process also came to be before we really knew what was going on in baseball.
    A few more singles and doubles are going to boost AVG, OBP and SLG.

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    Re: O'Neill, Daniels, Larkin, Jones & Stillwell: Past Thoughts and Observations?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    A few more singles and doubles are going to boost AVG, OBP and SLG.
    I realize that.

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    Re: O'Neill, Daniels, Larkin, Jones & Stillwell: Past Thoughts and Observations?

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    I realize that.
    Also as long as you're learning the game... the bases are 90 feet apart and the shoes those guys wear are called "spikes"

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    Re: O'Neill, Daniels, Larkin, Jones & Stillwell: Past Thoughts and Observations?

    Sounds like a game I played in school called MatBall.

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    Re: O'Neill, Daniels, Larkin, Jones & Stillwell: Past Thoughts and Observations?

    Another good comparison to Larkin-Stillwell (and I liked the Mez-Grandal comp Benihana offered in place of my Yonder-Grandal comp), might be Bailey vs Leake. Both first rounders. Bailey, the HS kid with all the tools, a bit rushed. Leake the polished college kid that everyone sees perform at a terrific level instantly.

    If Bailey could bring back a Danny Jackson type impact player, I think everyone would be happy at this point.

    As for Kal Daniels - here is his legacy, per quotes from this thread:

    Kal Daniels was a pleasure to watch hit, pure pure pure. He appeared to have the sam interest and drive for baseball that I do for having my fingernails removed with pliers. I think that is one player that walked away from a crazy amount of money, because he had talent.
    Daniels (great talent, lousy work ethic)
    Stillwell had obp and D. Larkin had "attitude" issues and a great bat. (Similar to Daniels.)
    As a kid, I loved Kal Daniels, although I was always weary of his terrible temper/attitude problems. He was almost like a mean-spirited Jay Bruce, being a highly-touted corner OF that tore through the minors and into a starting role in Cincy at age 22. Hopefully Bruce won't go out the same way ol' Kalvoski did. FWIW, I don't think that he will.
    I remember yelling at my radio when Daniels got traded. He was my favorite hitter on that team, just a beast with the bat.
    As for the other guys, Kal Daniels could hit falling out of bed- but it looked like he fielded the same way. I always thought Reds LF's had a hard time fielding in that stadium because LF was the sun field. Fans, at the time, got on Foster, Daniels, Dunn (LF is sun field in new park too), Gomes...they are in LF for a reason. Daniels also had terrible knees and over time that caught up with him. He should been a DH, but never really got a chance to do that.
    Daniels was an unbelievable hitter, but both he and Larkin couldn't get on the field every day.
    Essentially, Daniels ran himself out of town with not near enough consistent effort and health. But geez, could he hit. Never seen anything quite like Kal Daniels on one of his tears.
    What if Kal Daniels put in some effort? What if they left Paul O'Neil alone and let him be what he was?

    They were all great athletes, they were all good hitters, they were all great defenders. (Except daniels who could have been). People get excited about the young talent on the Reds now, look at 1987 Reds top 2. Davis was only 25 Daniels was 23.

    G AB R H 2B 3 HR RBI SB CS BB SO AVG OBP SLG OPS
    Daniels 108 368 73 123 24 1 26 64 26 8 60 62 .334 . 429 .617 1046
    Davis 129 474 120 139 23 4 37 100 50 6 84 134 .293 .399 .593 992
    BTW...what ever happened to Kal? Did he just decide to hang them up?
    I kept thinking that Daniels was going to come around and hated that he went to LA.
    He's like a Barry Sanders - Albert Belle hybrid. The sentiment I don't get is that people say, "if he could have focused more, if he could have worked harder", etc, he was already a beast! It seems he never has gotten his due, and perhaps its his fault - he sounds like a prickly guy, I guess.

    I'd love to hear Barry Larkin, or god forbid Tracy Jones, talk about his impressions of Kal from those days. He still ended up with 5 mil for his career, but I guess knee surgery wasn't what it is or something. A followup interview needs to be done, I demand it! He has to be a top 50 TALENT in Reds history.

    Anyway, I liked this from Cooper:
    What was clear was how much the Reds loved to draft guys who could run. If you couldn't run -you didn't play. Every guy they brought up (save a catcher or 2) could flat out run. Daniels, Davis, Jones, Larkin, O'neil, Sabo, Harris, Milner, Redus, Roomes, Hatcher, Householder, Duncan. The exception was a guy who couldn't run -and if he couldn't he better hit a ton. This to was a product of the times. When most of the these guys were drafted -the stolen base was considered a viable weapon. They ran fast and played really hard. When they hit it was fun to watch cause they flew.
    Pretty cool point of view now and it must have been exciting then to see all that athleticism in the org. Hopefully now is an equal or better parallel to those times with Yorman, Hamilton, Didi, an of course those in Cincy now.

    As for O'Neill, I'm dubious on every player, even those like Griffey, although I still allow my heart to believe the best. My radar does go off for O'Neill when you see the jumps, so I'll stick up for edabbs, he's not out of line for supposing it may be true. We cannot be sure though. Every player has to answer to these questions, unfortunately, for the games sake.

    Beyond all that, I thought Roberto Kelley was a damn fine player for the Reds, and Yanks - it wasn't a bad pickup. It just worked out for NY, who loves to rub people's noses in it anyway. F'm.

    It doesn't surprise me to hear that Tracy Jones lacked the intelligence to play baseball.
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    Re: O'Neill, Daniels, Larkin, Jones & Stillwell: Past Thoughts and Observations?

    Quote Originally Posted by membengal View Post
    For an example of O'Neill's gun in RF, look to, I think, Game 2 of the NLDS against the Pirates, he had a throw from deep RF to 3b to cut down a disbelieving Bobby Bonilla that will remain etched on my mind forever.
    Sorry for the hijack, but the throw was Eric Davis, 8th inning, game 4 of the NLCS. My favorite baseball play of all time. Davis was playing LF, the ball was hit to right center, Hatcher crashed into the wall in center and took himself out of the play. One hop to Sabo, tag, out.

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    Re: O'Neill, Daniels, Larkin, Jones & Stillwell: Past Thoughts and Observations?

    No, I remember Davis' too. I was referring to O'Neill's two games before that.

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    Re: O'Neill, Daniels, Larkin, Jones & Stillwell: Past Thoughts and Observations?

    2 quick thoughts:

    1. I did not mean to imply Tracy Jones was not intelligent -clearly the guy is pretty smart. He just didn't play smart when it came to -he ran into walls on an almost daily basis. He never was gonna make it long term with that approach, but all the football fans loved it.

    2. The ball the Eric Davis backed up Hatcher on and then threw a strike to Sabo was hit it to left center...not right center.

    As for Paul O. Their are numerous stories about a negative relationship between player and manager. There is no evidence that he took steroids.

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    Re: O'Neill, Daniels, Larkin, Jones & Stillwell: Past Thoughts and Observations?

    Quote Originally Posted by membengal View Post
    No, I remember Davis' too. I was referring to O'Neill's two games before that.
    Throwing out Andy Van Slyke perhaps, instead of Bonilla?

    The ball the Eric Davis backed up Hatcher on and then threw a strike to Sabo was hit it to left center...not right center.
    Eh, fair enough. Davis picked the ball up in right center.

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    Re: O'Neill, Daniels, Larkin, Jones & Stillwell: Past Thoughts and Observations?

    Van Slyke then. You got me.

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    Re: O'Neill, Daniels, Larkin, Jones & Stillwell: Past Thoughts and Observations?

    IIRC, there was plenty of whispers during O'Neil's .350+ BA season of PEDs. (Same with most of the Yankees that season.)

    I'd also say edabb's circumstantial evidence is pretty compelling:

    1. O'Neil's competitive drive and personality
    2. Known PED users on Yankee team
    3. O'Neil's slugging surge for New York well past his 30th birthday after years of pedestrian numbers with the Reds (60+ points that include those supposed waning years that typically drag down career numbers)

    I do think Pinella is partly to blame for O'Neil's struggles in Cincinnati, but not worth that much.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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    Re: O'Neill, Daniels, Larkin, Jones & Stillwell: Past Thoughts and Observations?

    The O'Neill stuff can be explained by looking at the stats.

    When he was with Cincy his BAbip was .279 (essentially he was hit unlucky as the typical BAbip is .300). He goes to NY and his BAbip goes to .320 and the year he really got hit lucky was 1994. His BAbip was .378. When that kind of thing occurs -you just flipped your luck.

    Doug Dirt is correct -there was not a power surge. There was a luck surge.

    All in all, his luck was really bad in Cincy and then became really good in NY and that evened out his career average to be about average when it comes to BAbip (.303). I really think you're pushing it when you infer that it was PED based. Sure as heck doesn't look like it to me.

    Did his LD% change when he moved from Cincy to NY?

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    Re: O'Neill, Daniels, Larkin, Jones & Stillwell: Past Thoughts and Observations?

    Quote Originally Posted by membengal View Post
    Van Slyke then. You got me.
    It was Bonilla, the ball thrown perfectly and Sabo's glove sat right on top of Bonilla's helmet, from RF. Helluva throw.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

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