Ronald Torreyes

[corkedbat]

I went through the 40-man rosters and made a list of all the guys who are sub-5'10". There's some talent there actually. If Torreyes were on the Reds 40-man today, the Reds own DRH (shortest player on a MLB roster) would be the only man shorter. Herrera is also only one of two pitchers listed as below 5'10". The Pillies actually start two sub-5'10" players in their everyday lineup - Rollins & Victorino.

The moral of the list below, IMHO, is that if Ronald can grow and inch or two in the next couple of years he should be fine. Although I submit that sports teams of all kinds are notorious for fudging heights and it would not surprise me if more than a couple of those listed at 5'8" weren't actually closer to 5'7".

Brian Roberts S-R 5'9" 175 (BAL)
Cesar Izturis S-R 5'9" 180 (BAL)
Dustin Pedroia R-R 5'9" 180 (BOS)
Eduardo Escobar S-R 5'8" 160 (BOS)
Omar Vizquel S-R 5'9" 175 (CHW)
Will Rhymes L-R 5'9" (DET)
Jarrod Dyson L-R 5'9" 160 (KC)
Alberto Callaspo S-R 5'8" (LAA)
Maicer Izturis S-R 5'8" 170 (LAA)
Alexi Casilla S-R 5'9" (MIN)
Ben Revere L-R 5'9" 175 (MIN)
Chone Figgins S-R 5'8" (SEA)
Mike McCoy R-R 5'9" 175 (TOR)
Tony Abreu S-R 5'9" (ARZ)
Matt Young L-R 5'8" 175 (ATL)
Daniel Ray Herrera L-L 5'6" 165 (CIN)
Jonathan Herrera S-R 5'9" 150 (COL)
Humberto Quintero R-R 5'9" 220 (HOU)
Jason Bourgeois R-R 5'9" 190 (HOU)
Dioner Navarro S-R 5'9" 205 (LAD)
Jamey Carroll R-R 5'9" 170 (LAD)
Rafael Furcal S-R 5'8" 195 (LAD)
Michael Martinez S-R 5'9" 145 (PHI)
Jimmy Rollins S-R 5'8" 170 (PHI)
Shane Victorino S-R 5'9" 190 (PHI)
Alex Presley L-L 5'9" 180 (PIT)
Jarrett Hoffpauir R-R 5'9" 190 (SD)
Luis Durango S-R 5'9" (SD)
Mike Fontenot L-R 5'8" 170 (SF)
Miguel Tejada R-R 5'9" 210 (SF)
Darren Ford R-R 5'9" 190 (SF)
Andres Torres S-R 5'9" 190 (SF)
Nick Punto S-R 5'9" 190 (STL)
Atahualpa Severino L-L 5'9" 170 (WAS)
Ivan Rodriguez R-R 5'9" 205 (WAS)

[bubbachunk]

Hey, way to miss the point. Applause to you.

He's already done something very noteworthy in his debut last year. Whether he was 5'7" or 6'7". So god forbid analysis start with what he did last year and discuss what his approach is that allowed him to do that, etc., and whether it is the kind of thing he can carry forward. Because THAT would be interesting to read. Pretty much anyone with a pulse knows that generally shorter players don't profile as easy to see coming prospects, hence, "duh". What would be FAR more interesting are discussions of Torryes that don't begin with his shortness. I mentioned Morgan and Pedroia as reminders that not all players who succeed profile classic-ly. Should I have mentioned Hack Wilson too? Do you want me to run every name of such players in baseball history? Why? I know that not as many have made it at that height as at taller heights. But discussions don't end there, because sometimes players do make it from the shorter heights, and I would really be curious as to a look at whether or not Torryes might be one who can, as opposed to dismissive posts that he will not, simply because he is short.

God forbid you take one point about his projectability so far to the extreme. The kid is still more unknown than anything. Some scouts have seen him, but not that many still. You wanting to ignore his size as it relates to him as a prospect when we have seen throughout history that with great certainty it is a fairly good indicator is maddening.

[texasdave]

If size was going to be an issue why would anyone ever sign someone 5'7"? Every comment I have read about him and every stat that I have seen indicates that he is a ballplayer. So let him advance level by level and let the chips fall where they may. Just like any other prospect.

[membengal]

Reading is fundamental. God forbid people do some of that. I am NOT ignoring his size. I AM asking why that must be the lede, given the year he had last year. I AM asking about what he did that made him successful and whether it will be something that he can carry forward, even with his size. In short, I AM wanting more from this forum than easy generalities.

In the past, this place has not given into that bent. I guess I have higher standards for the discussion on this forum based on the past.

My bad.

He sux. He's too short. Next.

Better?

[membengal]

If size was going to be an issue why would anyone ever sign someone 5'7"? Every comment I have read about him and every stat that I have seen indicates that he is a ballplayer. So let him advance level by level and let the chips fall where they may. Just like any other prospect.

This. Amen.

ETA: Thanks for that list up above, corked. Interesting, and the work in putting it together is appreciated.

[bubbachunk]

If size was going to be an issue why would anyone ever sign someone 5'7"? Every comment I have read about him and every stat that I have seen indicates that he is a ballplayer. So let him advance level by level and let the chips fall where they may. Just like any other prospect.

Because 16/17 year olds tend to still have growing to do

[Scrap Irony]

Brian Roberts S-R 5'9" 175 (BAL)
Dustin Pedroia R-R 5'9" 180 (BOS)
Omar Vizquel S-R 5'9" 175 (CHW)
Chone Figgins S-R 5"8" 170 (SEA)
Rafael Furcal S-R 5'8" 195 (LAD)
Jimmy Rollins S-R 5'8" 170 (PHI)
Miguel Tejada R-R 5'9" 210 (SF)

I took out all the merely decent starters, role players, roster filler, and prospects from the 40-man rosters. I left only the former MVPs, All-Stars, and well above average major league players.

All of these guys are not just good middle infielders, but have been great ones. None of them are over 5"8" (listed sizes be darned).

To poo-pooh a player simply because of his size (or lack thereof) would be to miss these eight exceptional talents.

Is Torreyes this good? Dunno. But he's done enough at a low level to peak my interest. His glove is supposedly top-notch. His hit tool has so far proven exceptional. (Not just good, but phenomenally good.)

His offensive numbers (one of two aspects to judge a player) were so far above his contemporaries as to be remarkable. The next closest same or similar age prospect in the Venezuelan or Arizona Leagues was more than 30 points behind in BA and well over 100 in slugging and OPS.

Those scouts that have seen him like his tools, too.

The only real mark against him is size. membengal is absolutely right here. (As per usual.) To simply discount the guy based only on his size is a generalization not deserving of a Red prospect on a Red site. We expect that (and make fun of it) in national reporters because they, frankly, have more to than report on Red prosects.

We don't.

[dougdirt]

Hey, way to miss the point. Applause to you.

He's already done something very noteworthy in his debut last year. Whether he was 5'7" or 6'7". So god forbid analysis start with what he did last year and discuss what his approach is that allowed him to do that, etc., and whether it is the kind of thing he can carry forward. Because THAT would be interesting to read. Pretty much anyone with a pulse knows that generally shorter players don't profile as easy to see coming prospects, hence, "duh". What would be FAR more interesting are discussions of Torryes that don't begin with his shortness. I mentioned Morgan and Pedroia as reminders that not all players who succeed profile classic-ly. Should I have mentioned Hack Wilson too? Do you want me to run every name of such players in baseball history? Why? I know that not as many have made it at that height as at taller heights. But discussions don't end there, because sometimes players do make it from the shorter heights, and I would really be curious as to a look at whether or not Torryes might be one who can, as opposed to dismissive posts that he will not, simply because he is short.

Except you still simply can't ignore size when looking at what he could one day do. A guy like Miguel Rojas for example, a scout wondered if pitchers would knock the bat out of his hand when he got to the upper levels of the minor leagues because of his size/strength. Size matters.

[dougdirt]

The only real mark against him is size. membengal is absolutely right here. (As per usual.) To simply discount the guy based only on his size is a generalization not deserving of a Red prospect on a Red site. We expect that (and make fun of it) in national reporters because they, frankly, have more to than report on Red prosects.

We don't.

No one is writing him off as a prospect because of his size. Simply suggesting it may play against him in the future if he doesn't improve his size.

[Scrap Irony]

No one is writing him off as a prospect because of his size. Simply suggesting it may play against him in the future if he doesn't improve his size.

Which is a fairly silly thing to suggest, as just about every human being in the world gets bigger and stronger from 17 to adulthood. He's going to get bigger.

The reasons he may not stick in the higher levels has little to do with size, doug. Small guys do well in baseball, particularly in the middle of the diamond, as evidenced by the list of small guys on 40-man rosters and in All-Star games.

He has shown an ability to hit and hit with pop. (That 550+ OPS would look great in a softball league, let alone in professional baseball.) That's something Miguel Rojas hasn't done yet. His pedigree also speaks highly of his ability to hit the ball with authority.

But your site, for example, doesn't even list him among the top 25 prospects in the Red pipeline.

I'd say that's the vey definition of "writing him off".

[Scrap Irony]

Except you still simply can't ignore size when looking at what he could one day do. A guy like Miguel Rojas for example, a scout wondered if pitchers would knock the bat out of his hand when he got to the upper levels of the minor leagues because of his size/strength. Size matters.

Did Miguel Rojas ever slug 560 over a full season?

Size doesn't matter.

Power does.

[dougdirt]

Which is a fairly silly thing to suggest, as just about every human being in the world gets bigger and stronger from 17 to adulthood. He's going to get bigger.

And some guys get a lot bigger, while some simply don't. Some guys simply don't have the frame to get much bigger. It is why we project these players rather than just go on what they are today. It is why Billy Hamilton and Dee Gordon aren't expected to hit for power in the future, because they don't have the frame to add good weight.

The reasons he may not stick in the higher levels has little to do with size, doug. Small guys do well in baseball, particularly in the middle of the diamond, as evidenced by the list of small guys on 40-man rosters and in All-Star games.

And I bet the list of "bigger guys" on those lists are immensely longer. And to suggest that size and strength have nothing to do with why some guys will struggle at a higher level is simply incorrect. This isn't to say Torreyes won't, but some guys fall into that problem.

He has shown an ability to hit and hit with pop. (That 550+ OPS would look great in a softball league, let alone in professional baseball.) That's something Miguel Rojas hasn't done yet. His pedigree also speaks highly of his ability to hit the ball with authority.

It is rookie ball. While its a nice sign, it hardly means something. As for Torreyes and his pedigree..... what pedigree? 100 at bats in the United States in the most friendly run scoring environment in the minor leagues? Or in the Venezuelan League where the competition level is somewhere below junior college level baseball where he also has less than a full seasons worth of data to go on?

But your site, for example, doesn't even list him among the top 25 prospects in the Red pipeline.

I'd say that's the vey definition of "writing him off".

And I would say that your definition of writing him off is a whole lot different than mine is. Heck, even BA had him at #22, so were they close to writing him off too? 22 is pretty close to 26. There is a very big difference between writing someone off and being skeptical about someone.

[dougdirt]

Did Miguel Rojas ever slug 560 over a full season?

Size doesn't matter.

Power does.

Size correlates to power. There is a reason your middle infielders don't hit for the power that your corner infielders do. Sure, there are exceptions to every rule, but are we really trying to argue that a guy who is 5'7" and 130 pounds is truly going to hit for power in the major leagues if he doesn't grow either height wise or weight wise? Torreyes had a .145 Isolated Power in the AZL last season. That isn't really power. Now, for his age, its pretty good. But his SLG was high because he hit .350, not because he had power. That power will play just fine at a MI spot, so as long as he continue to show that, it should be just fine.

[bubbachunk]

Which is a fairly silly thing to suggest, as just about every human being in the world gets bigger and stronger from 17 to adulthood. He's going to get bigger.

The reasons he may not stick in the higher levels has little to do with size, doug. Small guys do well in baseball, particularly in the middle of the diamond, as evidenced by the list of small guys on 40-man rosters and in All-Star games.

He has shown an ability to hit and hit with pop. (That 550+ OPS would look great in a softball league, let alone in professional baseball.) That's something Miguel Rojas hasn't done yet. His pedigree also speaks highly of his ability to hit the ball with authority.

But your site, for example, doesn't even list him among the top 25 prospects in the Red pipeline.

I'd say that's the vey definition of "writing him off".

Not everyone gets bigger and fills out as they get older. I went to high school with a kid who was 6'8 and weighed 135lbs. Guess what, 4 years later he might weigh 150 and he was in a college basketball program during that time. Some people just cannot put on good weight, they are just skinny/scrawny their entire lifes.

[lollipopcurve]

There are two reasons people downgrade prospects who are little guys. Projectability and prejudice. I'm glad the Reds didn't buy into that thinking when scouting Torreyes. The key is in recognizing which guys break the mold. It's not easy. Pedroia lasted into the supplemental 1st round, meaning most, if not all, MLB clubs passed on him at least once.

Keep in mind that Torreyes' numbers in the VSL were stratospheric, and he was playing with mostly older kids. Check VSL stats going back a few years. What he did as a 17 year-old was phenomenal. Add in the anecdotal reports we've seen about his defense, and it is certainly possible, IMO, that this is a kid who will crush his limitations.