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Thread: Ronald Torreyes

  1. #121
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    Re: Ronald Torreyes

    What's a stretch, Doug, is to assume, nay, darn near state with certainty like you have been doing, that Torreyes will be in the roughly 2% of males who do NOT put on that kind of weight these years. That would be the one-note stuff from you that has already grown old. Like I said, ironically, on this one, you have made yourself into the kind of poster invested in a position with regard to a prospect much like the Stubbs detractors were. Frankly, it's not a good look for you.

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  3. #122
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    Re: Ronald Torreyes

    My question is, how many males at that age are as slight a frame as Torreyes is and how many of those guys were able to do that? I am not a doctor, and I don't pretend to be one.... but not everyone is the same and guys with slight frames like that (and that of say, Billy Hamilton) aren't prone to adding such weight from what I have seen in the minor leagues after following them for a while.
    According to the US Army, boys between the ages of 18 and 20 gain somewhere between 10 and 15% of their 18-year-old weight by age 20. For Torreyes, that'd be somewhere between 13 and 30 lbs, depending on what you think Torreyes weighs now and how much he'll gain as he matures. (According to the CDC, it matters not at all whether he's considered small-, medium-, or large-framed. The percentage is virtually the same at those ages.)

    That would make him between 5'8" and 5'10" (or so) and 149 - 180 lbs. by age 20.

    Interestingly, men then gain another 10 to 15% by age 29, then another 10 - 15% between 30 and "old age". (Large-framed men gain more as they age; small framed men gain considerably less.)
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  4. #123
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    Re: Ronald Torreyes

    Let's recall what Delino Deshields said about Torreyes: "He's a little guy, but he doesn't hit like a little guy."

    I don't see that changing as he matures.
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  5. #124
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    Re: Ronald Torreyes

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    According to the US Army, boys between the ages of 18 and 20 gain somewhere between 10 and 15% of their 18-year-old weight by age 20. For Torreyes, that'd be somewhere between 13 and 30 lbs, depending on what you think Torreyes weighs now and how much he'll gain as he matures. (According to the CDC, it matters not at all whether he's considered small-, medium-, or large-framed. The percentage is virtually the same at those ages.)

    That would make him between 5'8" and 5'10" (or so) and 149 - 180 lbs. by age 20.

    Interestingly, men then gain another 10 to 15% by age 29, then another 10 - 15% between 30 and "old age". (Large-framed men gain more as they age; small framed men gain considerably less.)
    That doesn't really address the question I asked though. What do guys in that height range who weight 135-145 pounds typically gain? Having that group thrown in with the guys who are 5'10 and 165-175 at 18 doesn't tell me much, because the two body types are drastically different.

    Lollipop, you are right.... but, hitting singles/doubles isn't the same as hitting home runs. Guys his size aren't going to be doing much of that and we know its pretty tough to be a successful hitter without some semblance of HR power unless they are one of those rare guys who simply don't swing and miss. So far at least, Torreyes shows a very high contact rate. So he may not have to hit the ball over the fence.

  6. #125
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    Re: Ronald Torreyes

    Quote Originally Posted by membengal View Post
    What's a stretch, Doug, is to assume, nay, darn near state with certainty like you have been doing, that Torreyes will be in the roughly 2% of males who do NOT put on that kind of weight these years. That would be the one-note stuff from you that has already grown old. Like I said, ironically, on this one, you have made yourself into the kind of poster invested in a position with regard to a prospect much like the Stubbs detractors were. Frankly, it's not a good look for you.
    I think you are overlooking the fact that Torreyes may already be in a lower end % of all 18 year olds given his current size. What the typical 18 year old does in terms of weight gain doesn't mean much because being a 5'10" and 140 pound 18 year old isn't typical.

    Go look at pictures of him. Look at his forearms. He is very small framed. I hope he can put on the weight.... but nothing I see when looking at him suggests its going to happen at a similar rate to what a "typical person his age does" because he isn't the typical size of someone his age.

  7. #126
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    Re: Ronald Torreyes

    He is not real skinny but he does have a very small build and he looks even younger than he is, which is 18. If you put him on a high school freshman team, he would fit in physically. He is not going to be a real muscular guy who bench presses twice his weight. God just did not give him that kind of body. For me, his ability to add weight is not that much of a concern right now. Other things are going to be sorted out first.

    I saw him play six games last season and had no particular expectations at the outset, other than the fact that he was moved up to Dayton along with Sammy Diaz and David Vidal off the AZL team, basically because Dayton had to put nine players on the field, the last week of the season, the Billings team was in the playoff hunt, and they had to send SOMEONE to Dayton. I did not expect much.

    Defensively, what I saw absolutely stunned me. The very first game, he was making plays to his left and right, diving all over the field, throwing guys out from the ground, doing things at second base that I had not seen in that league in years. I would say it was one of the best defensive weeks I have seen out of a player at any level in 20 years.

    Offensively, the sample size was too small. He hit in the VSL, which means almost nothing. He hit in the AZL, which means a little but not too much (Humberto Sosa hit .300 at that level and got skipped to Dayton and was overmatched). I have no idea if he will hit. If he does come to Dayton this year, he might hit .220, he might hit .330.

    I know this: there is a song in the wind that the Reds really want to win in Dayton this season, and if that is true, there are people who will push for Torreyes to be assigned to Dayton. I have heard it said that if you really want to win, you will put Torreyes there.

    Interesting guy for a player that absolutely came out of nowhere. Basically, that week in Dayton got him on the Baseball America Reds top 30 prospect list. He would not have had the exposure otherwise.

  8. #127
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    Re: Ronald Torreyes

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    I think you are overlooking the fact that Torreyes may already be in a lower end % of all 18 year olds given his current size. What the typical 18 year old does in terms of weight gain doesn't mean much because being a 5'10" and 140 pound 18 year old isn't typical.

    Go look at pictures of him. Look at his forearms. He is very small framed. I hope he can put on the weight.... but nothing I see when looking at him suggests its going to happen at a similar rate to what a "typical person his age does" because he isn't the typical size of someone his age.
    EDIT: Old data (The Met Life actuary tables are from 1979 and rife with errors.) Better numbers below)

    The optimum weight for a 5'10" 18-year-old male is 132-145 lbs. (According to the MetLife actuary tables at halls.md) And, again, according to health.org and the CDC, it really doesn't matter what your frame is, you're going to gain somewhere between 10 and 15% of your body weight between 18 and 20.

    I stated that earlier, but you either ignored it or didn't read it.
    Last edited by Scrap Irony; 03-09-2011 at 10:14 PM.
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  9. #128
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    Re: Ronald Torreyes

    I am not taking a side in this argument except to say that Torreyes is not 5'10." The Reds list him at 5'10". Baseball America, fully aware that the Reds are listing him at 5'10", elected to list him at 5'7" in their prospect handbook based on eyewitness accounts. Before that was published, I posted on this site that he was much smaller than 5'10".

  10. #129
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    Re: Ronald Torreyes

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    The optimum weight for a 5'10" 18-year-old male is 132-145 lbs. (According to the MetLife actuary tables at halls.md) And, again, according to health.org and the CDC, it really doesn't matter what your frame is, you're going to gain somewhere between 10 and 15% of your body weight between 18 and 20.

    I stated that earlier, but you either ignored it or didn't read it.
    Must have missed that part.... but I simply can't believe that the optimum weight for a 5'10" 18 year old male is 132-140 pounds. Torreyes is in that range and he is a TINY dude and I don't mean for a professional athlete either. Just looking at pictures of him, I just can't see him adding 15 pounds of good weight to that frame. That is a large uptick in size on that small of a frame.

  11. #130
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    Re: Ronald Torreyes

    Quote Originally Posted by redsof72 View Post
    I am not taking a side in this argument except to say that Torreyes is not 5'10." The Reds list him at 5'10". Baseball America, fully aware that the Reds are listing him at 5'10", elected to list him at 5'7" in their prospect handbook based on eyewitness accounts. Before that was published, I posted on this site that he was much smaller than 5'10".
    Well, crap.

    There goes all that math.

    Too, as I read further, the Met Life actuary tables are from 1979. Both men and women are heavier now.

    After plugging in his 5' 7" height, the ideal weight, according to hall.md is 143 lbs. The medical recommendation is 121 - 160 lbs.

    The 10-15% of your total weight gained between 18 and 20 is still valid, however. That would make Torreyes likely to be somewhere between 154 and 162 lbs.
    Last edited by Scrap Irony; 03-09-2011 at 10:17 PM.
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  12. #131
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    Re: Ronald Torreyes

    Lollipop, you are right.... but, hitting singles/doubles isn't the same as hitting home runs. Guys his size aren't going to be doing much of that and we know its pretty tough to be a successful hitter without some semblance of HR power unless they are one of those rare guys who simply don't swing and miss. So far at least, Torreyes shows a very high contact rate. So he may not have to hit the ball over the fence.
    He's a 2nd baseman who plays excellent defense. So long as he's a tough out and can mix in some EBHs, there will be a place for him all the way up the ladder. There's a ways to go, but I'm not betting against him at this point.

    And as I've said before, I like that the Reds are not shying away from "undersized" players, whether they be position players or pitchers. There's a lot more to the game than measurables.
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    Re: Ronald Torreyes

    Benzinger said last year, after pitching BP to Torreyes for a week, that if he played a full season at the size he was at last year (a size that Benzinger had jokingly compared to a jockey), he would hit 8-10 home runs. That tells you maybe something about what DeShields was getting at.

  14. #133
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    Re: Ronald Torreyes

    Quote Originally Posted by redsof72 View Post
    I know this: there is a song in the wind that the Reds really want to win in Dayton this season, and if that is true, there are people who will push for Torreyes to be assigned to Dayton. I have heard it said that if you really want to win, you will put Torreyes there.
    That tells me pretty much all I need to know about how highly the Reds value him and how highly we should as amateur prospect posters.
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  15. #134
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    Re: Ronald Torreyes

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    He's a 2nd baseman who plays excellent defense. So long as he's a tough out and can mix in some EBHs, there will be a place for him all the way up the ladder. There's a ways to go, but I'm not betting against him at this point.

    And as I've said before, I like that the Reds are not shying away from "undersized" players, whether they be position players or pitchers. There's a lot more to the game than measurables.
    Certainly there is.... and I never said there wasn't. But measurables tend to mean things in sports. Not always, but there aren't a lot of exceptions to the rules and expecting someone to be is often going to lead to disappointment. With that said, Torreyes does two things very well so far that work in his favor. He puts the bat on the ball at an incredibly high rate. And he plays outstanding defense.

  16. #135
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    Re: Ronald Torreyes

    I would like to watch a game sometime with Rojas at short and Torreyes at second. That would be something to see. That middle infield would knock half a run off every pitcher's ERA.


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