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Thread: how is Greinke an 'ace' and better then what we have?

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    how is Greinke an 'ace' and better then what we have?

    If you look at his numbers he has had one very good season, everything else has been okay, but not earth shattering and not any better then say Cueto or Bronson or Wood or Leake or even Volquez can't post. So exactly why should we give up good young talent for this guy when we have equal to or if not better talent already on the pitching staff?

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    Re: how is Greinke an 'ace' and better then what we have?

    He has an ERA of 3.18 over his last 138 GS in the AL and you seriously think that Wood, Leake and Arroyo are in the same league?

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    Re: how is Greinke an 'ace' and better then what we have?

    Leake and Wood havent had enough innings to really know. Odds are they arent better though just looking at peripherals.

    Greinke with out a doubt is better than Arroyo and its not really close.

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    Re: how is Greinke an 'ace' and better then what we have?

    Since 2007 Arroyo has 75 QS and Greinke has 67


    Arroyo has 98 QS since joining the Reds, name another pitcher with more
    Last edited by Krawhitham; 07-27-2010 at 01:11 PM.

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    Re: how is Greinke an 'ace' and better then what we have?

    3.97 - 26 Homeruns surrenderd
    5.80 - 23 homeruns given up
    4.26 - 1 homerun given (only pitched in 3 games)
    3.69 - 12 home runs given up
    3.47 - 21 homeruns given up
    2.16 - 11 homeruns given up
    4.01 - already given up 14 homeruns

    Sorry, but while those numbers are nice, I don't consider those numbers 'ACE" material type numbers, and looking at this HR totals, given GABP, i would be scared to see what he would surrender here.

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    Re: how is Greinke an 'ace' and better then what we have?

    Quote Originally Posted by Krawhitham View Post
    Since 2007 Arroyo has 75 QS and Greinke has 67


    Arroyo has 98 QS since joining the Reds, name another pitcher with more
    Arroyo has also started 22 more games during that time.

    67% of Greinkes starts have been QSs
    61% of Arroyos have been

    Then figure in that Greinke has better K rates, BB rates, GB rates I think the discussion is very one sided.

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    Re: how is Greinke an 'ace' and better then what we have?

    Quote Originally Posted by GIDP View Post
    Arroyo has also started 22 more games during that time.
    .
    To me this is also key, why does Arroyo have 22 more starts? Arroyo for the most part is a innings eater, look at last night, gives our bullpen a night off. So yes the Royals pitcher is good, but right now given the makeup of our pitching staff I take Bronson. If you look at Greinke, he only has two seasons with over 200 innings pitched and one of those was just over 200 innings. Durability is a key stat in my book.

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    Re: how is Greinke an 'ace' and better then what we have?

    Quote Originally Posted by brm7675 View Post
    3.97 - 26 Homeruns surrenderd
    5.80 - 23 homeruns given up
    4.26 - 1 homerun given (only pitched in 3 games)
    3.69 - 12 home runs given up
    3.47 - 21 homeruns given up
    2.16 - 11 homeruns given up
    4.01 - already given up 14 homeruns

    Sorry, but while those numbers are nice, I don't consider those numbers 'ACE" material type numbers, and looking at this HR totals, given GABP, i would be scared to see what he would surrender here.
    Wouldn't want Halladay then. He's given up 13, 11, 19, 15, 18, 22 and 13 so far this year. Sabathia has given up 20, 19, 17, 20, 19, 18 and 12 so far this year.

    Home runs happen. The difference between a good pitcher and a bad pitcher is usually everything besides home runs. Greinke K's a ton of guys, walks very few and doesn't give up a lot of hits. That is what allows him and other TOR guys to succeed.

    And FWIW, since the remodeling of Kaufman after the 2008 season, it has been more of a hitters park than GABP.

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    Re: how is Greinke an 'ace' and better then what we have?

    Quote Originally Posted by brm7675 View Post
    To me this is also key, why does Arroyo have 22 more starts? Arroyo for the most part is a innings eater, look at last night, gives our bullpen a night off. So yes the Royals pitcher is good, but right now given the makeup of our pitching staff I take Bronson. If you look at Greinke, he only has two seasons with over 200 innings pitched and one of those was just over 200 innings. Durability is a key stat in my book.
    Because Greinke was 23 and had 38 appearances as a reliever in 2007
    Greinke has thrown more innings since 2008 as well.

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    Re: how is Greinke an 'ace' and better then what we have?

    Quote Originally Posted by brm7675 View Post
    If you look at his numbers he has had one very good season, everything else has been okay, but not earth shattering and not any better then say Cueto or Bronson or Wood or Leake or even Volquez can't post. So exactly why should we give up good young talent for this guy when we have equal to or if not better talent already on the pitching staff?
    If Greinke is not better than what the Reds have in house, would you mind naming say a dozen pitchers that are? How many total MLB starters would you say are better than what the Reds currently have in house?

    It is natural for a team's fans to overvalue their players, but you are really taking that to irrational extremes here.

    jvs

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    Re: how is Greinke an 'ace' and better then what we have?

    Quote Originally Posted by brm7675 View Post
    To me this is also key, why does Arroyo have 22 more starts? Arroyo for the most part is a innings eater, look at last night, gives our bullpen a night off. So yes the Royals pitcher is good, but right now given the makeup of our pitching staff I take Bronson. If you look at Greinke, he only has two seasons with over 200 innings pitched and one of those was just over 200 innings. Durability is a key stat in my book.
    Greinke has never been on the DL for any type of physical issue. He had his mental thing in 2006 and the Royals had him start and relieve in 2007.

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    Re: how is Greinke an 'ace' and better then what we have?

    Quote Originally Posted by PTjvs View Post
    If Greinke is not better than what the Reds have in house, would you mind naming say a dozen pitchers that are? How many total MLB starters would you say are better than what the Reds currently have in house?

    It is natural for a team's fans to overvalue their players, but you are really taking that to irrational extremes here.

    jvs
    right now with our base of Cueto/Arroyo/Wood/Leake/Volqeuz, I would say the Cards have a better base 3, but would only take Carpenter and Wainwright over any of ours. No other team in the central can match us. In the east, I would take Halliday but no one else from teh phils. No one on the Mets impress me. J. Johnson from the fish maybe, but he is still young but I would take him. No one on the Braves impresses me that much. In the west the Padres overall have the best starting staff, but I believe they pitch in a pitchers park so the numbers are a bit scewed. Latos is having a nice season but is coming off the DL. Colorado has Jimenez and he is a stud so I would take him. Overall that is about it, for once from 1-5 I think the Reds starters are good.

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    Re: how is Greinke an 'ace' and better then what we have?

    Greinke would be the best pitcher to play for the Reds since Soto, and I'm not forgetting Rijo.

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    Re: how is Greinke an 'ace' and better then what we have?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tampa Red View Post
    Greinke would be the best pitcher to play for the Reds since Soto, and I'm not forgetting Rijo.
    how is that?

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    Re: how is Greinke an 'ace' and better then what we have?

    Quote Originally Posted by brm7675 View Post
    right now with our base of Cueto/Arroyo/Wood/Leake/Volqeuz, I would say the Cards have a better base 3, but would only take Carpenter and Wainwright over any of ours. No other team in the central can match us. In the east, I would take Halliday but no one else from teh phils. No one on the Mets impress me. J. Johnson from the fish maybe, but he is still young but I would take him. No one on the Braves impresses me that much. In the west the Padres overall have the best starting staff, but I believe they pitch in a pitchers park so the numbers are a bit scewed. Latos is having a nice season but is coming off the DL. Colorado has Jimenez and he is a stud so I would take him. Overall that is about it, for once from 1-5 I think the Reds starters are good.
    Are you really saying that the only other starters in the NL (the AL exists too, I have heard!) that would be upgrades for the reds are Carpenter, Wainwright, Halliday, Jminez and maaaaybe you would scrape the bottom of the barrel and take Josh Johnson?

    I hope what you are actually saying is that it wouldn't be worth trading high end talent for marginal upgrades, which is a reasonable concept, in a vacuum. Thinking that Greinke is a marginal upgrade is fairly absurd though.

    What the Reds have is a deep starting staff of pitchers that project to perform at average to above average levels. This is a good thing, and a much better situation than the well below average staff of the last several years. A deep starting staff insulates a team from the effect of injuries, and gives you more consistent pitching in the 4-5 slot, which helps immensely in the regular season.

    Unfortunately, the goal of baseball isn't to win all the regular season games (just ask the 01 Mariners), but to win enough to make the playoffs, then win in the playoffs. Once you make the playoffs, your 4 & 5 starters, which have a great deal of say in whether you get to the playoffs or not, suddenly cease to matter much at all. You get to leverage your top end athletes more often, and top end quality is what counts. If you are truly a contender, and are trying to win it all this year, you bite the bullet and trade your B level young talent (Hi there Travis Wood) for A level veterans (Hi there Greinke!), and make your run.

    Of course, you could argue that this team is too flawed to make a serious playoff run, and trading for any veterans would be a mistake. This doesn't really hold for Greinke however, as he is potentially much more than a rental.

    jvs


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