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Thread: University of Kentucky Men's Basketball - 6th edition

  1. #256
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    Re: University of Kentucky Men's Basketball - 6th edition

    Is that historically or now, Hoosier?
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  3. #257
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    Re: University of Kentucky Men's Basketball - 6th edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Is that historically or now, Hoosier?
    A little of both I suppose, but essentially now, with regards to these two situations.
    That Kentucky had a player open an envelope full of cash in the 80's has not bears no weight in my opinion of the current situations.
    That John Calipari has had a number of times where he or his university was caught on the wrong shade of gray has some weight on how I feel about this.

    In the case of Bledsoe, my gut feeling all along was that he probably received some benefits he shouldn't have, that if it could be proven would probably have been worse than what most programs do, that the NCAA wouldn't be able to prove it so in all it would end up making Kentucky "look bad" but not really prove anything.

    I feel similarly for Kanter, I don't think either side is 100 honest in this,(player or Turkish Club,) I don't think Kentucky went in completely blind, but overall whatever allegations will be difficult if not impossible to prove. I believe that technically Kentucky is wrong in this instance, but no more wrong than any university when it comes to allowing foreign born players play.
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    Re: University of Kentucky Men's Basketball - 6th edition

    IU fans shouldn't talk about probation and breaking the rules....Go Cats,

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    Re: University of Kentucky Men's Basketball - 6th edition

    Quote Originally Posted by MrRed339 View Post
    IU fans shouldn't talk about probation and breaking the rules....Go Cats,
    +1

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    Re: University of Kentucky Men's Basketball - 6th edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Red View Post
    A little of both I suppose, but essentially now, with regards to these two situations.
    That Kentucky had a player open an envelope full of cash in the 80's has not bears no weight in my opinion of the current situations.
    That John Calipari has had a number of times where he or his university was caught on the wrong shade of gray has some weight on how I feel about this.

    In the case of Bledsoe, my gut feeling all along was that he probably received some benefits he shouldn't have, that if it could be proven would probably have been worse than what most programs do, that the NCAA wouldn't be able to prove it so in all it would end up making Kentucky "look bad" but not really prove anything.

    I feel similarly for Kanter, I don't think either side is 100 honest in this,(player or Turkish Club,) I don't think Kentucky went in completely blind, but overall whatever allegations will be difficult if not impossible to prove. I believe that technically Kentucky is wrong in this instance, but no more wrong than any university when it comes to allowing foreign born players play.
    Not to nitpick, but Calipari has never been implicated in any wrongdoing according to the NCAA. I cannot, for the life of me, figure out how the Marcus Camby situation could be held against Cal. The guy turned his own star into the NCAA, after all.

    The Derrick Rose situation has been hashed and rehashed ad nauseum and I've yet to read a convincing argument as to what coach would have held him out after the govering body okayed him.

    In other words, Cal gets a lot of crap thrown his way that's not really his fault.

    That said, I believe all major Division I programs cheat and cheat knowingly. They know they're breaking the rules and break them anyway.

    From my perspective (though you didn't ask), Michael Oher should never have been eligible, strictly speaking. What the Tuohy family did for him was both nice and highly questionable as to the rules of the NCAA. (Those BYU classes are ridiculous.) However, I would have done the same thing, I hope, and slept like a baby at night without thought as to the consequences. Sometimes, you do the right thing, no matter the cost.

    Bledsoe received much less "help" than that from a well-meaning teacher who knew this was Bledsoe's one chance at making it out of a desperate situation. The teacher, IMO, was both right (as it relates to Bledsoe and his decision to bump the grade) and knowingly did wrong (bumped Bledsoe to a grade he likely didn't deserve). This was technically permissable, as to NCAA standards, but questionable.

    As to Kanter, I suspect he got paid, but no more than private school athletes in America. I do believe the Greek GM lied about salary in order to keep alive the chance of selling Kanter to the NBA. ($4 million is a lot of money and a great incentive to lie.)

    Kanter may have taken some money, but he certainly wasn't under contract, as that would have been illegal, by FIBA and Greek courts. (He was under 18 when he played in Greece.) I suspect he took some cash, but, really, in the overall scheme of things, not enough to ultimately matter.
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    Re: University of Kentucky Men's Basketball - 6th edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Not to nitpick, but Calipari has never been implicated in any wrongdoing according to the NCAA. I cannot, for the life of me, figure out how the Marcus Camby situation could be held against Cal. The guy turned his own star into the NCAA, after all.

    The Derrick Rose situation has been hashed and rehashed ad nauseum and I've yet to read a convincing argument as to what coach would have held him out after the govering body okayed him.

    In other words, Cal gets a lot of crap thrown his way that's not really his fault.

    That said, I believe all major Division I programs cheat and cheat knowingly. They know they're breaking the rules and break them anyway.

    From my perspective (though you didn't ask), Michael Oher should never have been eligible, strictly speaking. What the Tuohy family did for him was both nice and highly questionable as to the rules of the NCAA. (Those BYU classes are ridiculous.) However, I would have done the same thing, I hope, and slept like a baby at night without thought as to the consequences. Sometimes, you do the right thing, no matter the cost.

    Bledsoe received much less "help" than that from a well-meaning teacher who knew this was Bledsoe's one chance at making it out of a desperate situation. The teacher, IMO, was both right (as it relates to Bledsoe and his decision to bump the grade) and knowingly did wrong (bumped Bledsoe to a grade he likely didn't deserve). This was technically permissable, as to NCAA standards, but questionable.

    As to Kanter, I suspect he got paid, but no more than private school athletes in America. I do believe the Greek GM lied about salary in order to keep alive the chance of selling Kanter to the NBA. ($4 million is a lot of money and a great incentive to lie.)

    Kanter may have taken some money, but he certainly wasn't under contract, as that would have been illegal, by FIBA and Greek courts. (He was under 18 when he played in Greece.) I suspect he took some cash, but, really, in the overall scheme of things, not enough to ultimately matter.
    +1. I agree with every single thing you typed in this post. Scary.

    (Except for the all programs knowingly cheat part. I don't agree with that. I believe your top coaches press things to the absolute limit, but I don't believe the vast
    majority of coaches knowingly break NCAA rules. And yes I include Cal in those who do not knowingly break rules.)

    (I would add to your very nice post the comparison that what Kanter took is almost identical to the benefits provided to your average prep school star, which is ALLOWABLE by the NCAA.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Calipari is not, nor has he ever been accused or "caught", cheating. He himself turned in one of his players (Camby) for dealing with an agent to get one Final Four overturned. The other is all on the NCAA and Rose. (IF Rose cheated.)
    "Cheering for Kentucky is like watching Star Wars and hoping Darth Vader chokes an ewok"


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    Re: University of Kentucky Men's Basketball - 6th edition

    Quote Originally Posted by WMR View Post
    (Except for the all programs knowingly cheat part. I don't agree with that. I believe your top coaches press things to the absolute limit, but I don't believe the vast
    majority of coaches knowingly break NCAA rules. And yes I include Cal in those who do not knowingly break rules.)
    Just to press my point, WMR. I know with an absolute certainty of four programs who cheat. By cheat, I mean $100 handshakes, bogus summer jobs, and academic fraud. The biggies.

    Those four programs, when confronted, all said the exact same thing (paraphrasing here): everyone else does it. If we are to stay relevant, we must also cheat.

    If those programs cheated and were only able to recruit "afterthought" prospects, maybes, and athletes, it stands to reason that higher up Division I programs also cheat. And cheat with more money, better cars, and easier classes.

    And a quick anecdote, to flavor the assertion:
    I also know of a Top Ten prospect that all the big boys wanted. He was an outstanding prospect who also happened to be dumb as a post. He couldn't spell cat is you spotted him C-A. While talking with an assistant coach at a high level camp, he shouted, "I won't take less than 50. Coach (Blank) is offering me 50. You tell (Blank) that." He smiled, then laughed, and said, "And Momma wants me to graduate. I don't go nowhere unless I get me a degree."

    The Assistant Coach rolled his eyes, smiled, and shook his head. He said the kid was delusional if he thought he was worth 50 grand. He'd only seen two kids who were worth 50 grand and (Blank) wasn't one of those. (The two that were? Ralph Sampson and Danny Manning.)

    The kid went to a major Division I program and graduated.

    Now, things may have changed in the past decade or so. If they have, it's been an amazing turnaround.
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    Re: University of Kentucky Men's Basketball - 6th edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Just to press my point, WMR. I know with an absolute certainty of four programs who cheat. By cheat, I mean $100 handshakes, bogus summer jobs, and academic fraud. The biggies.

    Those four programs, when confronted, all said the exact same thing (paraphrasing here): everyone else does it. If we are to stay relevant, we must also cheat.

    If those programs cheated and were only able to recruit "afterthought" prospects, maybes, and athletes, it stands to reason that higher up Division I programs also cheat. And cheat with more money, better cars, and easier classes.

    And a quick anecdote, to flavor the assertion:
    I also know of a Top Ten prospect that all the big boys wanted. He was an outstanding prospect who also happened to be dumb as a post. He couldn't spell cat is you spotted him C-A. While talking with an assistant coach at a high level camp, he shouted, "I won't take less than 50. Coach (Blank) is offering me 50. You tell (Blank) that." He smiled, then laughed, and said, "And Momma wants me to graduate. I don't go nowhere unless I get me a degree."

    The Assistant Coach rolled his eyes, smiled, and shook his head. He said the kid was delusional if he thought he was worth 50 grand. He'd only seen two kids who were worth 50 grand and (Blank) wasn't one of those. (The two that were? Ralph Sampson and Danny Manning.)

    The kid went to a major Division I program and graduated.

    Now, things may have changed in the past decade or so. If they have, it's been an amazing turnaround.
    How did you discover what you did about those 4 schools?
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Calipari is not, nor has he ever been accused or "caught", cheating. He himself turned in one of his players (Camby) for dealing with an agent to get one Final Four overturned. The other is all on the NCAA and Rose. (IF Rose cheated.)
    "Cheering for Kentucky is like watching Star Wars and hoping Darth Vader chokes an ewok"


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    Re: University of Kentucky Men's Basketball - 6th edition

    Something UK fans and haters can agree on:

    http://www.sportspickle.com/article/...sports-history

    The Bluegrass State has always had to endure cruel hillbilly stereotypes and taunts, but Converse sadistically took things to a new level when they introduced these new uniforms for the Catsí 1996 title run.


    Want to show the world youíre not a bunch of hicks? Good luck doing it while wearing the basketball equivalent of cutoffs!


    Mercifully, the uniforms didnít include mullet wigs or require the players to have a few of their teeth pulled or even ride onto the court in a pickup truck, swilling whiskey and wildly firing shotguns into the air. But the damage was done.


    At least Tobias Funke got a favorite basketball team out of the deal.
    Quote Originally Posted by savafan View Post
    I've read books about sparkling vampires who walk around in the daylight that were written better than a John Fay article.

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    Re: University of Kentucky Men's Basketball - 6th edition

    It wasn't hard. Alumni were willing to talk about it, even brag about it. (One guy told me he was able to give every player on one specific talented team a good car. Another told me he considered it his calling.) You'd see the handshakes in the locker room after games. As to the classes, I talked to kids who took classes with athletes. (At one paticular college, for example, a student told me of a "test" players were taking in a phys ed class. They passed a completed test around the back of the room and filled out their tests while the TA stood at the front of the room.)

    In the end, my sports editor told me that no one wanted to see another scandal, especially from a mid-level newspaper in a mid-level state about mid-level programs. He said I needed to save those kind of stories for big papers and Sporting News. (Actually, it was big papersch and Schporting Newsth, as he had a major lisp, but, hey, it's not like I'm bitter or anything.)

    I didn't have a great name for myself and was a newbie to the way news works, so I kept quiet. (Sometimes, I think, if the internet was more then like it is now, what I would have done. But it wasn't.)
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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  12. #266
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    Re: University of Kentucky Men's Basketball - 6th edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    It wasn't hard. Alumni were willing to talk about it, even brag about it. (One guy told me he was able to give every player on one specific talented team a good car. Another told me he considered it his calling.) You'd see the handshakes in the locker room after games. As to the classes, I talked to kids who took classes with athletes. (At one paticular college, for example, a student told me of a "test" players were taking in a phys ed class. They passed a completed test around the back of the room and filled out their tests while the TA stood at the front of the room.)

    In the end, my sports editor told me that no one wanted to see another scandal, especially from a mid-level newspaper in a mid-level state about mid-level programs. He said I needed to save those kind of stories for big papers and Sporting News. (Actually, it was big papersch and Schporting Newsth, as he had a major lisp, but, hey, it's not like I'm bitter or anything.)

    I didn't have a great name for myself and was a newbie to the way news works, so I kept quiet. (Sometimes, I think, if the internet was more then like it is now, what I would have done. But it wasn't.)
    Maybe it still goes on as rampantly, but in this internet age I can't believe anyone being so cavalier about flouting the rules...

    Look at how these scumbags in the media tried to demonize Cal over stuff that CLEARLY wasn't his fault... would he really risk giving them something actually tangible to focus their obsession towards?

    What you describe sounds more like out of control alumni/boosters which I DEFINITELY believe occurs at EVERY school. How can a school effectively control every booster? As I'm sure you know, ANYONE can become a booster, simply by their actions towards a recruit or player...
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Calipari is not, nor has he ever been accused or "caught", cheating. He himself turned in one of his players (Camby) for dealing with an agent to get one Final Four overturned. The other is all on the NCAA and Rose. (IF Rose cheated.)
    "Cheering for Kentucky is like watching Star Wars and hoping Darth Vader chokes an ewok"


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    Re: University of Kentucky Men's Basketball - 6th edition

    nm
    I was in the ORG once, best 6 months of my life.

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    Re: University of Kentucky Men's Basketball - 6th edition

    Quote Originally Posted by WMR View Post
    Maybe it still goes on as rampantly, but in this internet age I can't believe anyone being so cavalier about flouting the rules...

    Look at how these scumbags in the media tried to demonize Cal over stuff that CLEARLY wasn't his fault... would he really risk giving them something actually tangible to focus their obsession towards?

    What you describe sounds more like out of control alumni/boosters which I DEFINITELY believe occurs at EVERY school. How can a school effectively control every booster? As I'm sure you know, ANYONE can become a booster, simply by their actions towards a recruit or player...
    Coaches were just as guilty, WMR. I know those four programs completely ignored practice times, often going for three, three and a half hours as a team per practice, with more time (two hours or so) individual/ positional practices. They'd then often have late-night practices as well.

    Papers were written for many, many players. Grades were given in many classes to many athletes, most of which weren't earned.

    Remember, too, that coaches knew all of this was going on. They couldn't help but notice.

    It's not just boosters. (Though they were also guilty.) It's coaches and kids, too.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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    Re: University of Kentucky Men's Basketball - 6th edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Coaches were just as guilty, WMR. I know those four programs completely ignored practice times, often going for three, three and a half hours as a team per practice, with more time (two hours or so) individual/ positional practices. They'd then often have late-night practices as well.

    Papers were written for many, many players. Grades were given in many classes to many athletes, most of which weren't earned.

    Remember, too, that coaches knew all of this was going on. They couldn't help but notice.

    It's not just boosters. (Though they were also guilty.) It's coaches and kids, too.
    I've heard from some college basketball/football gurus that the most rampant cheating goes on at the mid-majors and lesser-quality D1 schools... the ones that can't get players...

    Now I'm not saying that other kids at 'big time' schools don't get perks, because I'm sure they do...

    I just refuse to cast aspersions on any program, school, or individual without some concrete facts staring me in the face. Talk to me about Bruce Pearl or Kelvin Sampson, for instance...

    Right now everyone is convinced that Drew down at Baylor is the next big 'DIRTY' coach. I don't believe that.

    EDIT: As to your story, if the coaches were letting those sorts of boosters into their locker room then they are just as complicit in the improper benefits as the boosters and players.

    EDIT: And they definitely don't hand out free grades at UK. Just check that first semester GPA. (Still don't think enough credit is given to the freshmen who FINISHED their 2nd semester when they had no real compulsion to do so other than their own conscience (all but Orton.))
    Last edited by WMR; 10-06-2010 at 08:02 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Calipari is not, nor has he ever been accused or "caught", cheating. He himself turned in one of his players (Camby) for dealing with an agent to get one Final Four overturned. The other is all on the NCAA and Rose. (IF Rose cheated.)
    "Cheering for Kentucky is like watching Star Wars and hoping Darth Vader chokes an ewok"


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    Re: University of Kentucky Men's Basketball - 6th edition

    They might not hand out free grades now, WMR, but the rumors around the newsrooms and arenas I worked were less than flattering then.

    I know Dirk Minnifield's name was mentioned multiple times. (It was a running joke, in fact, known even among some of the nation's elite writers.) Later on, there were mentions of others, including some of those that put up banners.

    Now, those rumors may not have been true. It was before my time. There were no locker room shenanigans at Kentucky or Louisville at that time, at least in the games I covered. (Most of the home games for UK, about half the Card games.)

    (Louisville fans shouldn't even think of responding, btw. Rumor was drug use among Cardinal players was rampant at one time, and grades were given in so many classes that one star player had to ask an Assistant SID guy what his classes were, when asked his favorite class. Then he said, "I don't know, man. Just pick one of 'em." That last story is absolutely true. I asked the question.)
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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