After all that noise about getting swept by the Cards.....

[HARP3R]

That's true, Vottomatic.

A lot of prospects are drafted just to trade.

It is paramount to build some sort of depth in your farm system, though, and even though you have a superstar in the making at 1B, and a good young (relatively) 2B, it never hurts to have cost-controlled depth everywhere.

If the Cardinals lose Pujols, Yadier, or Holliday to a serious injury, they really don't have an adequate player to take over, and they can't afford to go out and get an adequate replacement.

If the Reds can continue to draft well, and keep restocking the farm, they can let go of some of those top prospects like Alonso to help go out and grab an ace, but you'll need the cheap prospects when guys like Votto, Volquez, and Stubbs/Heisey get those big contracts.

The Cardinals are pretty much handcuffed by the impending Pujols contract, along with Carp, Holliday, and Lohse (who makes something like $30M the next 3 seasons). They certainly won't be able to offer Molina or Rasmus what they deserve when the time comes. Heck, Waino's only making $4.8M this year! Not bad for a guy who's in the running for a Cy Young. We'll need quite a few cheap guys when Wainwright gets paid what he deserves.

[HARP3R]

Also, Vottomatic, the one thing I didn't mention is that it's players like Frazier and Francisco that allows guys like Rolen and Phillips to walk.

That will be a lot of money off the books when Rolen and BP are gone, and if Frazier/Francisco can play to their potential, that's a dangerous, and cost-controlled duo that will allow the Reds to pay the players they have to keep, as well as going out to pick up a couple big names for a year or two.

Prospects are no guarantee, but they are very important to the future of a team.

[Vottomatic]

Also, Vottomatic, the one thing I didn't mention is that it's players like Frazier and Francisco that allows guys like Rolen and Phillips to walk.

That will be a lot of money off the books when Rolen and BP are gone, and if Frazier/Francisco can play to their potential, that's a dangerous, and cost-controlled duo that will allow the Reds to pay the players they have to keep, as well as going out to pick up a couple big names for a year or two.

Prospects are no guarantee, but they are very important to the future of a team.

Rolen will be here til he retires. He did the organization a favor, and himself (in terms of being closer to home) by re-upping at a lower price. Even if he only plays 120 games a year, he's a bargain. He will finish his career with the Reds and will be loved for it in the end. I like his leadership and appreciate what he's got left. Defensively, he may not be what he once was, but the routine plays are no longer an adventure like they were with EE.

[HARP3R]

Defensively, he may not be what he once was, but the routine plays are no longer an adventure like they were with EE.

He's still better defensively than 95% of the 3B in the game.

It's a beautiful thing watching SR pick a short hop at the hot corner. I've never enjoyed watching a player play their position like I did watching Rolen. Well, I was too young to enjoy Ozzie's early years, but he was obviously a treat to watch, and I'd say he takes the cake against Rolen, but it's a close call.

[Vottomatic]

Go find some Brooks Robinson videos of him playing third base. Greatest defensive third baseman of all time, hands down.

[HARP3R]

Go find some Brooks Robinson videos of him playing third base. Greatest defensive third baseman of all time, hands down.

I definitely can't argue that. I'm sure sorry that I didn't have a chance to see him play.

[MikeThierry]

It was pretty mixed.

There were a lot of people that were upset about Walt leaving, but only really because no one knew anything about Mozeliak, and because WJ had been here for so long. Jocketty brought in a lot of big names to St.Louis, which brought a lot of respect from the fans, but people who followed the Cards' system as well as the big club could really see Walt's fatal flaw: a depleted farm system.

The Cardinals, under Walt, ALWAYS traded away a lot of prospects to bring in the big-name trade deadline guys (i.e. McGwire, Mulder, Rolen, Edmonds, Walker, etcetera). I don't know if Walt just didn't believe a strong farm system was a must when building an organization with some fiscal flexibility, or if he just felt those pieces were necessary, but he left a farm system that was always ranked near the bottom of the league.

So as a whole, I think a lot of us here were excited to see what Mozeliak could do, but we all respected Jocketty. I don't know exactly why Jocketty was fired, but I know there was a lot of divisiveness in the front office between WJ and Bill DeWitt. I guess the two just had different ideas on the future.

You sort of hit the nail on the head here but there was some real dissension within the Cards organization. There were essentially two camps in the organization where some believed in Walts philosophy over Jeff Lunow's drafting philosophy. I think the biggest issue that pushed him out is the fact that this team would have to consistently bring in fresh young talent if the Cards were going to keep Pujols. They weren't going to do that with Walt at the helm.

Currently, I think Mo has done an excellent job in bringing in young talent. Yeah, its true that the current farm system is somewhat depleted due to the trades of last year. However one factor in that depletion might be because there have been key impact rookies come into the team in the past couple of years (Freese, Ryan, Jay, Craig, Garcia).

HARP, I think its inevitable that the payroll is going to have to increase over 100 million. I certainly believe the Cards have the funds to do so. I don't think they will have a problem resigning Yadi and Rasmus. However, I would also like you to look at the bonus Waino gets if he finishes in the top 5. It might change your mind about him having a low contract. From what I understand, if he finishes in the top 5, his 2012-2013 option will be 22 million

[HARP3R]

HARP, I think its inevitable that the payroll is going to have to increase over 100 million. I certainly believe the Cards have the funds to do so. I don't think they will have a problem resigning Yadi and Rasmus. However, I would also like you to look at the bonus Waino gets if he finishes in the top 5. It might change your mind about him having a low contract. From what I understand, if he finishes in the top 5, his 2012-2013 option will be 22 million

I don't think there's any question that the Cards will HAVE to bump that payroll over $100M if they want to field a playoff team for the next decade.

Honestly, I don't follow the business part of baseball as much as I follow everything else, so I'm not really sure what is all embedded in Waino's contract. I'm pretty dull with the contracts and all their details haha! It sounds like you're light years ahead of me there! So please correct me if I'm wrong anywhere here!

The Cardinals' opening day payroll was $93M with roughly $63M tied up in 5 players (Pujols, Holliday, Carp, Lohse, and Penny). FIVE frickin' players out of 25. Carp, Lohse, and Penny will all three be off the books by 2013, I believe, so that'll open up quite a bit of payroll right there. It will be tough if the Cards re-sign Pujols to roughly $30M annually though, as almost $50M will be tied up annually for a handful of years between Holliday and Pujols. Not to mention the enormous contract Waino will eventually fetch, and the very generous contracts Rasmus, Molina, and possibly Garcia will be offered.

The Cardinals' organization is very lucky that year-in-year-out St.Louis ranks in the top-5 in attendance, because St.Louis is far from a big market, and sustaining a payroll upwards of $100M isn't really fiscally responsible for DeWitt. If the Cards can't get that payroll up, it'll be very difficult to field a serious contending team here in the near future.

[New York Red]

Go find some Brooks Robinson videos of him playing third base. Greatest defensive third baseman of all time, hands down.

Don't forget Buddy Bell.

[redssince75]

Gee, how did a "Cards series didn't kill us" thread turn into a novel about Walt Jocketty's time with the Cardinals. I live in St. Louis, and I love the Reds, and while the Cardinals are the only other MLB team I even somewhat like, this stuff didn't interest me when it was happening the 1st time around.

[HARP3R]

Gee, how did a "Cards series didn't kill us" thread turn into a novel about Walt Jocketty's time with the Cardinals. I live in St. Louis, and I love the Reds, and while the Cardinals are the only other MLB team I even somewhat like, this stuff didn't interest me when it was happening the 1st time around.

Sorry about all the WJ talk. But it is relevant to you and your Reds, considering he is your GM. We were really just discussing some of his past pitfalls, which are likely to occur in Cincinnati.

I got a little carried away with the talk about the Cardinals and their payroll, and I shouldn't have let those opinions spill over into a Reds' forum. I do apologize for that.

[Señor Rojo]

Sorry about all the WJ talk. But it is relevant to you and your Reds, considering he is your GM. We were really just discussing some of his past pitfalls, which are likely to occur in Cincinnati.

I got a little carried away with the talk about the Cardinals and their payroll, and I shouldn't have let those opinions spill over into a Reds' forum. I do apologize for that.

It's cool. I found your recounts of WJ's track record in St. Louis to be really helpful. I also agree with your point of the Cardinals needing to open up their wallets to keep the core of their team. After living in St. Louis for a year, I wouldn't be surprised if a Pujols tax would passed on the November ballot (all money raised goes towards his new contract). Honestly, I think this season signals a changing of the guard in the central division. The Cardinals aren't getting any younger, whereas the Reds have some budding talent surrounded by experienced veterans. Let's hope Jocketty doesn't trade too much of our farm system for short term success.

[MarkInBoro]

Ahh, I do remember hearing about that trade now. I knew nothing about Roenicke or Stewart, but with how Rolen had played the previous two years with all of the injuries, I was pretty curious with the trade.

Encarnacion was known here in St.Louis by many as "the Cardinal killer", as many other players (Bud Norris, for instance) are. I was very happy to see EE gone from the Central.

However, with Rolen (healthy) and back to his old form, it seems that is really a trade that has paid off for Cincy, and I wouldn't mind seeing EE back at 3B over Scott.

Anyway, my advice to any Reds' fan...Don't grow too attached to any of your prospects. Walt isn't afraid to give (a little too much at times) to get. He does know how to build some darn good ball clubs though.

How is it that Cardinals fans like you can get into & banter along in a Cincinnati Reds forum, but Reds fans like myself can't obtain permission to join sites like CardsClubhouse.com?
I tried to join that site, & set up a user name & password with a contact roark1138...
But that user name & password doesn't work, maybe because the tag-line in ALL of my posts WOULD HAVE read..."Go Reds".

[MikeThierry]

Well, I think they are going to get creative with the Pujols contract. Hell, it wouldn't surprise me if they offered partial ownership to him when his career is over with (something like 1-5%)

Senor, as far as the Cards not getting any younger, I think that is a bit misleading. The current Cardinals club might be the youngest I can remember in a long time. There is nobody over 30 within the every day starting lineup. The way the financial situation will be in a couple of years, it is important to constantly bring up cheap, young talent so I don't see this team aging as much as people think.

[MarkInBoro]

The Cardinals are pretty much handcuffed by the impending Pujols contract, along with Carp, Holliday, and Lohse (who makes something like $30M the next 3 seasons). They certainly won't be able to offer Molina or Rasmus what they deserve when the time comes. Heck, Waino's only making $4.8M this year! Not bad for a guy who's in the running for a Cy Young. We'll need quite a few cheap guys when Wainwright gets paid what he deserves.

There's no way the Cards can afford to pay all these guys what they'll be asking, or what arbitration settles for. I see some of your starting pitching ace-bloc going bye-bye after this season. That's no doubt the reason why the move was made to shore up the bottom of the rotation at the end of July...to get one last shot a World Series rings, before the lion's share of Cardinals franchise $$ is thrown at Puhols, the cornerstone.