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Thread: Post All-Star Game production (and lack there-of).

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    Post All-Star Game production (and lack there-of).

    C Ramon HERNANDEZ...........(.360 AVG; .377 OBP; .560 SLG; .937 OPS)
    1B Joey VOTTO..........(.354 AVG; .429 OBP; .606 SLG; 1.035 OPS)
    2B Brandon PHILLIPS..........(.246 AVG; .292 OBP; .385 SLG; .678 OPS)
    SS Orlando CABRERA..........(.333 AVG; .395 OBP; .391 SLG; .786 OPS)
    3B Scott ROLEN..........(.354 AVG; .419 OBP; .492 SLG; .911 OPS)
    LF Jonny GOMES..........(.217 AVG; .311 OBP; .315 SLG; .627 OPS)
    CF Drew STUBBS..........(.241 AVG; .262 OBP; .443 SLG; .705 OPS)
    RF Jay BRUCE..........(.260 AVG; .306 OBP; .370 SLG; .676 OPS)
    3B Miguel CAIRO..........(.271 AVG; .390 OBP; .438 SLG; .827 OPS)
    LF Laynce NIX..........(.425 AVG; .500 OBP; .600 SLG; 1.100 OPS)
    C Ryan HANIGAN..........(.208 AVG; .267 OBP; .283 SLG; .550 OPS)**
    CF Chris HEISEY..........(.279 AVG; .385 OBP; .442 SLG; .826 OPS)
    SS Paul JANISH..........(.286 AVG; .339 OBP; .429 SLG; .767 OPS)
    C Corky MILLER..........(.429 AVG; .429 OBP; .571 SLG; 1.000 OPS)
    3B Juan FRANCISCO..........(.375 AVG; .412 OBP; .500 SLG; .912 OPS)
    CF Jim EDMONDS..(as a Red)..(.158 AVG; .200 OBP; .421 SLG; .621 OPS)

    **We knew it would take another 6 weeks or so for Hanigan's injury to heal. Hanigan should be much better come September.


    The pitcher's "Against" stats:

    Bronson ARROYO..........(.207 AVG; .278 OBP; .361 SLG; .639 OPS)
    Mike LEAKE..........(.311 AVG; .365 OBP; .509 SLG; .875 OPS)
    Johnny CUETO..........(.241 AVG; .291 OBP; .379 SLG; .671 OPS)
    Homer BAILEY..........(.143 AVG; .143 OBP; .143 SLG; .286 OPS)
    Travis WOOD..........(.205 AVG; .262 OBP; .330 SLG; .593 OPS)
    Edinson VOLQUEZ..........(.278 AVG; .398 OBP; .474 SLG; .871 OPS)
    Francisco CORDERO..........(.149 AVG; .344 OBP; .213 SLG; .557 OPS) ***
    Nick MASSET..........(.155 AVG; .222 OBP; .224 SLG; .446 OPS)
    Arthur RHODES..........(.175 AVG; .214 OBP; .325 SLG; .539 OPS)
    Logan ONDRUSEK..........(.182 AVG; .274 OBP; .291 SLG; .565 OPS)
    Micah OWINGS..........(.333 AVG; .667 OBP; 1.333 SLG; 2.000 OPS)
    Jordan SMITH..........(.250 AVG; .286 OBP; .367 SLG; .652 OPS)
    Bill BRAY..........(.225 AVG; .311 OBP; .450 SLG; .761 OPS)
    Carlos FISHER..........(.179 AVG; .233 OBP; .214 SLG; .448 OPS)
    Russ SPRINGER..........(.286 AVG; .286 OBP; .286 SLG; .571 OPS)


    ***As you can see, Cordero has pitched better than any of the team's starters. He's pitched better than almost everyone since the All-Star break. The REDS are lucky to have him. This is why he was paid the big bucks...to come through during a playoff run and settle the rest of the bullpen...be it's anchor. Well, he's doing that now.

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    Re: Post All-Star Game production (and lack there-of).

    a .344 OBP against is being an anchor?

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    Re: Post All-Star Game production (and lack there-of).

    Quote Originally Posted by GIDP View Post
    a .344 OBP against is being an anchor?
    Absolutely!

    When combined with a .143 AVG and a .213 SLG.

    These are numbers unmatched by anyone on the REDS' staff other than Homer Bailey's one appearance.

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    Re: Post All-Star Game production (and lack there-of).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingspoint View Post
    Absolutely!

    When combined with a .143 AVG and a .213 SLG.

    These are numbers unmatched by anyone on the REDS' staff other than Homer Bailey's one appearance.
    Way to cherry pick stats. You can't be serious. Hello Colin Cowherd!

    In 10 2/3 innings since the break, he's walked 13 batters, hit 1 batter, and has given up 5 earned runs. He's been lucky he hasn't given up more runs. "Anchor" is not quite the word I'd use for a pitcher that seemingly every night is walking the tight rope.

    Anyway, it was fun playing!

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    Re: Post All-Star Game production (and lack there-of).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingspoint View Post
    Absolutely!

    When combined with a .143 AVG and a .213 SLG.

    These are numbers unmatched by anyone on the REDS' staff other than Homer Bailey's one appearance.
    Yes if OBP and slugging were equal 1:1 ratio.

    Stopping base runners is the most important part for ever reliever. If people arent on base the slugging doesnt even matter.

    Cordero has allowed a silly amount of base runners and there is no defending it.

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    Re: Post All-Star Game production (and lack there-of).

    Phillips' declining numbers stand out.

    He looks tired out there at times. Hasn't affected his defense, but he's not hitting with the authority he did earlier.

    Leadoff isn't a good spot for him.

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    Re: Post All-Star Game production (and lack there-of).

    Quote Originally Posted by couch_manager View Post
    Way to cherry pick stats. You can't be serious. Hello Colin Cowherd!

    In 10 2/3 innings since the break, he's walked 13 batters, hit 1 batter, and has given up 5 earned runs. He's been lucky he hasn't given up more runs. "Anchor" is not quite the word I'd use for a pitcher that seemingly every night is walking the tight rope.

    Anyway, it was fun playing!
    Ah....Dude....

    You and GIDP are the cherry-pickers of stats. Trying to find the negative drop in a sea of positive numbers. You talk about OBP, while I'm talking about OPS, a number that covers how effective a pitcher really is, or about AVG, where a runner isn't going to score if he can't get knocked in. Nobody's going to score many runs if they're expecting to be walked in.

    Since the All-Star break, and that's all we're talking about here, Francisco Cordero has yet to Blow a Save. He has 8 Saves, 1 Hold, 1 Loss, and 4 other appearances where he didn't give up a single hit or a single run.

    That, my friend, is an anchor, a leader, someone the rest of the bullpen can rally behind. Someone trying to poo-poo a .557 OPS-Against is only trying to find needle in a haystack.

    Francisco Cordero has saved 15 of his last 16 Save Opportunities. But, why look at that when you can concentrate so heavily on how many walks he gives up. Pundits said the same thing about Nolan Ryan for a dozen years before they finally had to admit that it didn't matter.
    Last edited by Kingspoint; 08-20-2010 at 12:50 AM.

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    Re: Post All-Star Game production (and lack there-of).

    Kings....I have to agree from the ASB to now, Coco has been lights out....problem is, he has been so horrible all year that we have come to think of him as a failure, so when he pitches average, we seem to think he is "lights out".......

    I quit looking at pitchers stats back when Danny Graves had 30 saves right after the ASB.....no way did he derserve the right to have that 30 by his name.....and no way does Coco derserve to have that number by his name....but the name of the game is closer so as long as we win, then I am ok with him.....but let me ask everyone this..........

    We have a 2 run lead, Dusty calls on Coco in the 9th...is there 1 person in here that does not hold your breath? Is there 1 person not yelling at Dusty as he touches his right arm in the direction of Coco? coco is far from a closer, but he does save the game.....he just is not a closer.

    Now ask yourself the same question with a 1 run lead? OUCH

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    Re: Post All-Star Game production (and lack there-of).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingspoint View Post
    Ah....Dude....

    You and GIDP are the cherry-pickers of stats. Trying to find the negative drop in a sea of positive numbers. You talk about OBP, while I'm talking about OPS, a number that covers how effective a pitcher really is, or about AVG, where a runner isn't going to score if he can't get knocked in. Nobody's going to score many runs if they're expecting to be walked in.

    Since the All-Star break, and that's all we're talking about here, Francisco Cordero has yet to Blow a Save. He has 8 Saves, 1 Hold, 1 Loss, and 4 other appearances where he didn't give up a single hit or a single run.

    That, my friend, is an anchor, a leader, someone the rest of the bullpen can rally behind. Someone trying to poo-poo a .557 OPS-Against is only trying to find needle in a haystack.

    Francisco Cordero has saved 15 of his last 16 Save Opportunities. But, why look at that when you can concentrate so heavily on how many walks he gives up. Pundits said the same thing about Nolan Ryan for a dozen years before they finally had to admit that it didn't matter.
    While I think, or at least hope Cordero is turning it around and the 15/16 saves and OPS is nice, I would in no way call him an anchor in the second half of the season. Anchors who stabilize a bullpen and staff typically don't get pulled from a game and save situation when they are given a 3 run lead, the "easiest" save, and can't find home plate. While even the best have bad games, for Coco during that stretch, it wasn't isolated but symptomatic of a larger issue. The previous day he got a save, but Pinella was upset with the Cubs hitters as again that day Cordero was all over the place and Pinella was convinced if his hitters had been more patient and disciplined, Cordero would have walked 5 or 6 hitters.

    Then came the Marlins game where Cordero loaded the bases I believe with none out, walking two along the way. The only reason he escaped that (and Masset or someone was warming up that night) was Gaby Sanchez bailed him out by swinging at the first pitch and grounding into a double play, and Uggla swung at the first pitch he saw and hit a foul popout to Votto.

    Your drawing an analogy or making a comparison to Nolan Ryan is a bit bewildering, because a starting pitcher can afford to be a little wild if he spaces out his walks enough. Guys like A.J. Burnett in the past and Edwin Jackson this year threw no hitters while still walking 8 or 9 guys. You can do that as a starter and still never come all that close to even allowing 1 run if you only walk 1 an inning, or no more than 2 in any inning. But as a closer, you've generally got 1 inning to work with, and if you walk 2 or 3 guys with a 1 run lead, you're flirting with disaster. You may still escape it unscathed, but it doesn't seem very anchor like to me. Heck, Cordero was almost pulled 2 outings in a row.

    It does seem he's hopefully made some adjustments though, so maybe we'll start to see that down the stretch.
    Last edited by Redeye fly; 08-20-2010 at 07:28 AM.

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    Re: Post All-Star Game production (and lack there-of).

    Make that 16 for 17 overall and 9 for 9 since the All-Star break.

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    Re: Post All-Star Game production (and lack there-of).

    Nice to see both Phillips and Hanigan come through twice tonight.

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    Re: Post All-Star Game production (and lack there-of).

    I'm not going to argue any stats, for or against, but I still cringe when Cordero comes in to close out a game.

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    Re: Post All-Star Game production (and lack there-of).

    Quote Originally Posted by New York Red View Post
    I'm not going to argue any stats, for or against, but I still cringe when Cordero comes in to close out a game.
    Yeah, some things are better left up to your gut and your eyes.

    The guy makes everything more difficult than it should be.

    WHIP and walks need to be considered too. Dude always allow someone or more to get on base and make you nervous.
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

    "Man do I miss the days where were didn't need a calculator and an encyclopedia of baseball metrics to enjoy a baseball game ... - MikeS21" - 8/2/12 game thread

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    Re: Post All-Star Game production (and lack there-of).

    we are 4.5 games up....thats what I call production.


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