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View Poll Results: Does Homer have TOR Stuff?

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  • Yes

    14 66.67%
  • No

    3 14.29%
  • Not sure

    4 19.05%
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Thread: Homer Bailey poll

  1. #31
    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: Homer Bailey poll

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp View Post
    I voted "not sure." Personally, I'm not sure I see TOR stuff in him. However, I recognize an awful lot of hitters have commented on his stuff, and since they're the ones that have to face it, I take into consideration it must be better than it looks.
    Someone said Uggla said something, never heard that. I do recall Pujols suggesting it which would normally have some sway with me but Albert didn't go into specifics and I assumed that because Homer possesses the one pitch Albert has problems with (the splitty) and as I have stated it's a good pitch for him then not so sure he wasn't commenting specifically about the one pitch, or being swayed largely by that one pitch.
    Last edited by Mario-Rijo; 08-22-2010 at 03:42 PM.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

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  3. #32
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Homer Bailey, Overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo View Post
    Fair enough let's put it to the test.
    I think you are conflating stuff and performance. To me, they're different things. Stuff is ability, the pitcher's tools. Homer has not performed like a TOR guy , no doubt -- as the stats you posted point out. However, I think he has the stuff to do so. He just hasn't quite figured out how to use his stuff as effectively as he could.

    A good example of this, from the other side of the coin, is Cliff Lee. His stuff is good, but not great. If you were watching him throw a bullpen, you wouldn't think "that guy has TOR stuff." However, his control is excellent and he's a GREAT pitcher -- from the perspective of selection, changing speeds, etc. That results in a TOR performer. Stuff is just a part of that.
    Last edited by RedsManRick; 08-22-2010 at 03:11 PM.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  4. #33
    High five! nate's Avatar
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    Re: Homer Bailey poll

    I think Homer's could be heading in the right direction towards being a useful starting pitcher. I'm still skeptical of the Reds handling of him and their ability to "fix" what they screwed up but he's pitched well enough to continue giving him opportunities.

    Lo and behold:



    A good upward trend. Will he be the K-machine he was in the minors?



    Perhaps even more encouraging. Hopefully, these two things are contagious amongst the Reds starters.



    Another good sign.



    So, he's traded some groundballs for flyballs but he's also reduced the number of line drives.

    I think the best we can say about Homer at this point is he's a work in progress that's interesting enough to keep working on. I'm not big on "TOR," "MOR" or "BOR" as those are largely relative labels that have no meaning. As long as these trends continue in the direction they're going, Homer can be a valuable member of the Reds pitching staff. AND...maybe most importantly, relatively inexpensive.

    OR, he can be a valuable trading chip in the offseason.
    "Bring on Rod Stupid!"

  5. #34
    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: Homer Bailey, Overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Your poll seems to conflate the ideas of having TOR stuff and being TOR effective. Your initial post is laser focused on performance, not stuff. To me, they're different things. Homer has not performed like a TOR guy and may never. But I think he has the stuff to do so.
    My initial post is focused on his stuff, my reasoning for doubting his stuff in large part is his performance. Had I said that a part of my thinking was what I see with my eyes I probably would have been told to get glasses. Does he have the stuff? I don't see it or the results of it.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

    --Woody Hayes

  6. #35
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Homer Bailey, Overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo View Post
    My initial post is focused on his stuff, my reasoning for doubting his stuff in large part is his performance. Had I said that a part of my thinking was what I see with my eyes I probably would have been told to get glasses. Does he have the stuff? I don't see it or the results of it.
    Fair enough. So long as the judgement is on the quality of his pitches, not solely on the results he's gotten, I'm happy to agree to disagree. Even if that stuff isn't TOR, it's certainly better than #4 quality. Whether or not he ever figures out to how to pitch better than as a 3/4 type guy remains to be seen.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  7. #36
    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: Homer Bailey, Overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    I think you are conflating stuff and performance. To me, they're different things. Stuff is ability, the pitcher's tools. Homer has not performed like a TOR guy , no doubt -- as the stats you posted point out. However, I think he has the stuff to do so. He just hasn't quite figured out how to use his stuff as effectively as he could.

    A good example of this, from the other side of the coin, is Cliff Lee. His stuff is good, but not great. If you were watching him throw a bullpen, you wouldn't think "that guy has TOR stuff." However, his control is excellent and he's a GREAT pitcher -- from the perspective of selection, changing speeds, etc. That results in a TOR performer. Stuff is just a part of that.
    Lee is an interesting comp (if you are indeed comparing them, not sure) as he wouldn't have been confused with a TOR starter either before he fixed his control. And like Homer doesn't miss a ton of bats, and his H/9 (without looking) were probably not all that special either.

    So if I am reading everyone correctly he needs to work on some things yet to be a TOR guy and conceivably what he needs to work on mainly is his control and/or command. Given Lee as an example of that I could maybe buy that argument. I hope that is the case because I don't think his fastball or curveball are as good as people like to think they are.

    I voted Not sure in the poll but just to clarify that, I don't see it but I'm willing to admit I don't have enough info to say that with confidence.
    Last edited by Mario-Rijo; 08-22-2010 at 03:55 PM.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

    --Woody Hayes

  8. #37
    Moderator The Operator's Avatar
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    Re: Homer Bailey poll

    I have a random observation I want to drop in about Homer.

    If any of you are watching NYY-BOS right now on MLB Network, pay close attention to Josh Beckett's wind up and delivery. I'm telling you, Homer has copied Josh Beckett's mechanics.

    Watch the leg kick, the double pump in the glove, the drive home... Homer does everything almost the exact same way.

    Not that any of this is important, but it definitely caught my eye. There are definitely worse guys to try and emulate.
    Quote Originally Posted by BCubb2003 View Post
    Don't worry. I'd say the game threads are about league average.
    2013 Reds Record when I attend: 5-4
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  9. #38
    I hate the Cubs LoganBuck's Avatar
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    Re: Homer Bailey poll

    Quote Originally Posted by The Operator View Post
    I have a random observation I want to drop in about Homer.

    If any of you are watching NYY-BOS right now on MLB Network, pay close attention to Josh Beckett's wind up and delivery. I'm telling you, Homer has copied Josh Beckett's mechanics.

    Watch the leg kick, the double pump in the glove, the drive home... Homer does everything almost the exact same way.

    Not that any of this is important, but it definitely caught my eye. There are definitely worse guys to try and emulate.
    Homer has had that for a couple years. IIRC the Reds and Red Sox had an interleague game last year or the year before. Beckett versus Homer, FSN had a split screen of their deliveries. They were very similar, at that point Homer was just plain terrible though.
    The Sox traded Bullfrog the only player they've got for Shottenhoffen. Four-eyes Shottenhoffen a utility infielder. They've got a whole team of utility infielders.

  10. #39
    Moderator The Operator's Avatar
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    Re: Homer Bailey poll

    Hmm, guess I'm a bit behind on that then. At least I'm not the only one who saw it!
    Quote Originally Posted by BCubb2003 View Post
    Don't worry. I'd say the game threads are about league average.
    2013 Reds Record when I attend: 5-4
    2012 Reds Record when I attend: 10-7

  11. #40
    Moderator The Operator's Avatar
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    Re: Homer Bailey poll

    Bronson just tried to go deep. Petco Park say "NOT SO FAST!"

    1 down, BP up.
    Quote Originally Posted by BCubb2003 View Post
    Don't worry. I'd say the game threads are about league average.
    2013 Reds Record when I attend: 5-4
    2012 Reds Record when I attend: 10-7

  12. #41
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Homer Bailey poll

    Quote Originally Posted by The Operator View Post
    Bronson just tried to go deep. Petco Park say "NOT SO FAST!"

    1 down, BP up.
    lol this must be the Redszone, game thread version of 'gender confused.'
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  13. #42
    Moderator The Operator's Avatar
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    Re: Homer Bailey poll

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp View Post
    lol this must be the Redszone, game thread version of 'gender confused.'
    Whoops... that's what multiple tabs will do for ya.
    Quote Originally Posted by BCubb2003 View Post
    Don't worry. I'd say the game threads are about league average.
    2013 Reds Record when I attend: 5-4
    2012 Reds Record when I attend: 10-7

  14. #43
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Homer Bailey poll

    Quote Originally Posted by The Operator View Post
    Hmm, guess I'm a bit behind on that then. At least I'm not the only one who saw it!
    Bailey has been compared to Beckett since he was in High School. That comp isn't likely to go away soon. They have similar stuff and nearly identical mechanics.

  15. #44
    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
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    Re: Homer Bailey poll

    Homer Bailey finished the 2010 season with an 8.26 K/9 and a 3.30 BB/9. Both are solid numbers. I said this in another thread - based on his peripherals, I think Homer Bailey is a candidate for a breakout season in 2010. I'm not saying he'll develop into an ace but a solid No. 2 is a strong possibility, IMO.
    I miss Adam Dunn.

  16. #45
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: Homer Bailey poll

    I thought this was the year for his breakout (obviously by my sig), but the injury derailed the possibility. Give him consistent starts...he's going to deliver.
    2014 predictions:
    99-63 WS champs (Cards take 2nd WC, Mil 3rd, Pit 4th, Chi 5th)
    Bruce/Votto neck and neck MVP race (neither takes it)
    Bailey CYA winner
    Hamilton ROY & GG


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