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Thread: Scott Freaking Rolen

  1. #1
    Member Phhhl's Avatar
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    Scott Freaking Rolen

    I don't know what you guys are thinking about Scott Rolen, but I believe he has come close in social status in this country to a reality tv star. I mean, winning a presidency has nothing on that, right? I know he has only hit 1 homer in the last two months, but the guy is changing the way I evaluate players. I can no longer afford to be jaded about the pure statistics of these players. No doubt, judging players against the league average replacement has value. But,only if you intend to be average. Rolen’s effect on the Reds is something that cannot be entirely quantified statistically. Anyone with any talent on the Reds this year has had moments when they played the game like an amateur, either on the bases or defensively. Base running mistakes seem to show up every night. I point out the game on Friday against the Cards as one where simple incompetence in multiple fundamental skills of the game conspired to cost this team runs and ultimately a win. Even as good as Joey Votto is, he has been guilty of ridiculously stupid mistakes this season too, just like everyone else except for... wait for it... Scott Rolen.

    My argument for Rolen is based on the fact that he catches absolutely everything pony expressed down the left field line, and puts on a clinic every time he throws a baseball across an infield. Even if his power hitting is fading, the rest of his game has barely eroded. He works a pitcher like Derek Jeter and never gets outsmarted. At the plate, the only thing you see is that he is occasionally behind a fastball. But, even then, he manages to foul off a tough pitch almost at will, and tends to work the pitcher into a position where he eventually gives up a hittable pitch.

    On top of all of this, the guy is the best coach on the staff.

    Kirk Gibson is the guy I compare Rolen to most. If the Reds win it all, his role will rank up with the bloody sock, Gibson and Bill Mazeroski. Magic.

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  3. #2
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    Re: Scott Freaking Rolen

    Nicely stated.

    Rem

  4. #3
    Member icehole3's Avatar
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    Re: Scott Freaking Rolen

    for years I tried to make that point Santo, it turns you into public enemy no.1 around this forum, tread lightly on this subject or you'll be treated like a witch in Salem

  5. #4
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Scott Freaking Rolen

    Good post Santo, and I agree with you about Rolen.
    I think the problem a lot of stats minded fans have with giving a player "extra credit" for contributions that cannot be statistically measured is that it can become an all purpose way to highly rank a player a person likes, regardless of the facts, i.e., 'ole Joe only hit .245 but he hustles and is a "holler guy" who inspires the team, that kind of thing.
    I'm reminded of something Jayson Stark wrote in his book "The Stark Truth" about Pete Rose: "The energy emanating from Pete Rose, the baseball player, was so overpowering, you could have plugged every TV in America into his uniform. His numbers probably suggest he was overrated by the time he got to Philadelphia. But I saw, with my personal ocular lenses, that this man had a quality underestimated by any numbers. Anyone who thinks it's a coincidence that the 1980 Phillies won the only World Series in franchise history (the book was published in 2007) after Rose showed up must also think it's a coincidence that cars always stop when the light turns red. Pete Rose lifted that team to a different level-in the standings, in October, and in their heads. Don't tell me I hallucinated that. I saw it." I can recall the 1980 Phillies, and the effect Rose had on Mike Schmidt, and Stark is correct (In the same book Stark ranked Rolen as the fifth most underrated third baseman of all time).
    In in his "New Bill James Histroical Baseball Abstract," Bill James recognized that leadership can be "real and sometimes significant" even if it cannot be statistically measured, and listed the following players who should be given credit for their leadership skills: Joe DiMaggio, Ken Boyer, Bob Gibson, Carlton Fisk, George Brett, Hal McRae, Gil Hodges, Pee Wee Reese, Pete Rose, Joe Morgan (I don't know how James left Jackie Robinson, Frank Robinson and Tony Perez off that list).
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

  6. #5
    First Time Caller SunDeck's Avatar
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    Re: Scott Freaking Rolen

    I always had the impression from quotes by the guys who were not part of the BRM elite that Rose wasn't much of a leader, unless you consider this to be a good example. Said to Hal King during a rough plane flight:

    We're going down. We're going down and I have a .300 lifetime average to take with me. Do you?
    Next Reds manager, second shooter. --Confirmed on Redszone.

  7. #6
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Scott Freaking Rolen

    For the sake of context, stats-minded fans were giddy about Rolen's addition last season.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  8. #7
    Haunted by walks
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    Re: Scott Freaking Rolen

    I think the problem is when "veteran presence" is all you can say about the aging, declining player you could afford to add. Reds fans have been through that before. The flip side is overvaluing the young, athletic but erratic player whose playing time is being blocked.

  9. #8
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: Scott Freaking Rolen

    Hey stat experts...is there anything to the gaudy difference of the Reds W-L percentage with and without Rolen in the lineup. I don't have it in front of me but FSN displayed it tonight. I gotta think the sample size is getting pretty big at this point.

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    Member Cedric's Avatar
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    Re: Scott Freaking Rolen

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    Hey stat experts...is there anything to the gaudy difference of the Reds W-L percentage with and without Rolen in the lineup. I don't have it in front of me but FSN displayed it tonight. I gotta think the sample size is getting pretty big at this point.

    He's a better player than the Reds other options. Why is it surprising the Reds win more when he's playing?
    This is the time. The real Reds organization is back.

  11. #10
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: Scott Freaking Rolen

    Quote Originally Posted by Cedric View Post
    He's a better player than the Reds other options. Why is it surprising the Reds win more when he's playing?
    As I said Cedric, the numbers were staggering. Much moreso than the 5 or so WAR that Rolen is at best. C'mon man bring something better than that to an honest question. I really don't know what angle you are getting at with an answer like that.

    Sorry if I'm curt people. I just sometimes hope for a good ole answer, not a condescending/mocking one. (You know what I mean)

  12. #11
    Party like it's 1990 Blitz Dorsey's Avatar
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    Re: Scott Freaking Rolen

    Yo brother, pass that over heeerreee.

  13. #12
    Member Cedric's Avatar
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    Re: Scott Freaking Rolen

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    As I said Cedric, the numbers were staggering. Much moreso than the 5 or so WAR that Rolen is at best. C'mon man bring something better than that to an honest question. I really don't know what angle you are getting at with an answer like that.

    Sorry if I'm curt people. I just sometimes hope for a good ole answer, not a condescending/mocking one. (You know what I mean)
    I wasn't being rude. A better player creates more depth in a lineup and veterans like Rolen really grind out at bats and wear out opposing pitchers.
    This is the time. The real Reds organization is back.

  14. #13
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: Scott Freaking Rolen

    Quote Originally Posted by Cedric View Post
    I wasn't being rude. A better player creates more depth in a lineup and veterans like Rolen really grind out at bats and wear out opposing pitchers.
    I understand, no harm no foul. And I agree with your point here. I wish someone could come up with the numbers cause they blew my mind to see in print.

  15. #14
    Dyslexic Taquitos Quatitos's Avatar
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    Re: Scott Freaking Rolen

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    As I said Cedric, the numbers were staggering. Much moreso than the 5 or so WAR that Rolen is at best. C'mon man bring something better than that to an honest question. I really don't know what angle you are getting at with an answer like that.

    Sorry if I'm curt people. I just sometimes hope for a good ole answer, not a condescending/mocking one. (You know what I mean)
    I think I remember in 2008 that the same stats for Jerry Hairston jr was just as staggering. Now that said, I believe that was much more from luck than the effect Rolen has on this team. You can't only point to something like a teams record when a player is in the lineup or not, but with the other evidence towards Rolens leadership it can be used to show that the effect is real and significant.

  16. #15
    Dyslexic Taquitos Quatitos's Avatar
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    Re: Scott Freaking Rolen

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    I understand, no harm no foul. And I agree with your point here. I wish someone could come up with the numbers cause they blew my mind to see in print.
    I can't remember the exact numbers they used, but the winning percentage was like .600 with, and .451 without and that is through about a month and a half short of 2 full seasons.
    Last edited by Quatitos; 05-13-2011 at 11:43 PM.


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