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Thread: Outfield question

  1. #31
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    Re: Outfield question

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Alonso isn't really as overweight as you make it out to be. The guy has tree trunk legs. He just isn't going to get faster. The better question is, why can't Votto move to the outfield, where he doesn't have to do anything to 'be in shape' for it?
    If you commit to moving Votto and playing Alonso at first, that move has to be predicated on some critical assumptions.

    1. That Alonso will hit better than Heisey, Gomes, Nix, Frazier, Sappelt and anybody you might have reasonably acquired (plus, possibly, Dorn and Francisco).

    2. That Alonso will hit well enough to hold down first base in a league where his counterparts will include Pujols, Howard, Adrian Gonzalez and Fielder, for starters.

    3. That neither Alonso at 1B nor Votto in LF will represent a significant drop in defense.

    I'm not sure I've seen enough to warrant taking on all those uncertainties.
    Last edited by mace; 09-16-2010 at 05:01 PM.

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  3. #32
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    Re: Outfield question

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Alonso isn't really as overweight as you make it out to be. The guy has tree trunk legs. He just isn't going to get faster. The better question is, why can't Votto move to the outfield, where he doesn't have to do anything to 'be in shape' for it?
    Because you wouldn't expect someone with Pujols type talent to move positions. Would the Cardinals ask Pujols to move? OK bad example.
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  4. #33
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    Re: Outfield question

    Quote Originally Posted by paulrichjr View Post
    Because you wouldn't expect someone with Pujols type talent to move positions. Would the Cardinals ask Pujols to move? OK bad example.
    Actually Pujols has moved positions twice already.

  5. #34
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Outfield question

    Quote Originally Posted by paulrichjr View Post
    Because you wouldn't expect someone with Pujols type talent to move positions. Would the Cardinals ask Pujols to move? OK bad example.
    It is actually the perfect example. Do what is best for the team. Now whether or not that is making the move, I don't know. I like to think I do, but we never really will unless we actually try it. But I don't like the idea that Votto simply can't move off of first base because he is good, but Alonso can because Votto is there. All of that despite the fact that Votto profiles incredibly better in left than Alonso does.

  6. #35
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    Re: Outfield question

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    It is actually the perfect example. Do what is best for the team. Now whether or not that is making the move, I don't know. I like to think I do, but we never really will unless we actually try it. But I don't like the idea that Votto simply can't move off of first base because he is good, but Alonso can because Votto is there. All of that despite the fact that Votto profiles incredibly better in left than Alonso does.
    Been sayin' this for a while. Couldn't agree more.

  7. #36
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    Re: Outfield question

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    It is actually the perfect example. Do what is best for the team. Now whether or not that is making the move, I don't know. I like to think I do, but we never really will unless we actually try it. But I don't like the idea that Votto simply can't move off of first base because he is good, but Alonso can because Votto is there. All of that despite the fact that Votto profiles incredibly better in left than Alonso does.
    I was being facetious. I think it's a perfect example also. I can't understand why they wouldn't ask him to do it when one of the greatest players in our lifetime did the exact same thing and his profile is extremely close to Votto.
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    I remember one time going out to the mound to talk with Bob Gibson. He told me to get back behind the batter, that the only thing I knew about pitching was that it was hard to hit.

  8. #37
    Brett William Moore Will M's Avatar
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    Re: Outfield question

    lets assume that the Reds approach Votto about a move to LF. He does it because it will help the team & plays adequate defense there.
    The 2011 team:
    1B Alonso
    2B Phillips
    SS Janish or Cozart
    3B Rolen (120 games) & _____ (40 games)
    RF Bruce
    CF Stubbs
    LF Votto
    C Hernandez/Hanigan or Hanigan/Mes

    I think that team may have problems scoring runs. Even with a 7 deep rotation & a solid core of relievers i see a lot of 3-1 losses.
    (Krivsky's dream has arrived: we have become the Twins!).
    Maybe Bruce puts together a full season & we have a mean 3-4 punch in the middle of the order. but it just seems like a better bat than Alonso is needed (or a big upgrade at SS).

    that being said money will always be tight. i hope we bring Bronson back because of the innings he provides. we don't want to injure the young arms. yet when we do that i don't think there will be a lot of cash for a bat.

    My prediction is one of the following:
    1. the lineup above. if the team needs a boost mid season a trade is possible
    2. Alonso & Bailey/Volquez for a bat that hasn't yet gotten into the really expensive contract years
    .

  9. #38
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    Re: Outfield question

    why would you move a potential triple crown threat who can man first base for the next 10 years. I love Votto, I wouldn't want to see him move to Left. I'd be afraid of injury and oh man that would crush this team's future.

  10. #39
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    Re: Outfield question

    I am suprised by how many of you think that the solution to the Alonso problem is to ask Votto to move to LF. If Votto was in favor of the idea presumably he would come to the Reds and offer to move. It's not like Votto doesnt know that he is blocking Alonso. If Votto hasnt come to the Reds and made the offer then it probably meeans he doesnt want to do it.

    So I think that ends the discussion. The Reds need to keep Votto happy and he probably wouldnt be happy about moving from his position to make room for a guy that was OPSing .175 points lower than Votto; while playing a level below Votto. And I don't blame him.

    And another thing. This weight thing with Alonso is an issue. I don't want to hear how "naturally" slow Alonso is until Alonso is in shape. If he gets in shape and is still "Sean Casey-slow" that is one thing. But he simply isnt in shape. He isnt Andre Smith fat, but he is fat. And that is slowing him down. He needs to take some spinning classes in the offseason and do a little road work. Eat some salad, switch from Bud-heavy to Bud Light. There is just no way that I am buying that a guy in his mid-20s is unable to be fast enough to play MLB-average LF.

  11. #40
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    Re: Outfield question

    Quote Originally Posted by cinreds21 View Post
    Actually Pujols has moved positions twice already.
    It's hard to say he moved positions when he never had a fully permanent position before first base. His first three seasons, he bounced around all four corners:

    2001 starts -- 3B 52, LF 37, RF 33, 1B 32
    2002 starts -- LF 101, 3B 37, 1B 16
    2003 starts -- LF 113, 1B 36

    And if we look at the menagerie that played left field for the Cardinals in 2004, making room for those guys clearly wasn't the motivation behind moving Pujols to first base full time.
    Not all who wander are lost

  12. #41
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Outfield question

    Quote Originally Posted by Pony Boy View Post
    I am suprised by how many of you think that the solution to the Alonso problem is to ask Votto to move to LF. If Votto was in favor of the idea presumably he would come to the Reds and offer to move. It's not like Votto doesnt know that he is blocking Alonso. If Votto hasnt come to the Reds and made the offer then it probably meeans he doesnt want to do it.
    Then tell him that he isn't five anymore, you sign his checks and he is going to do what is best for the team. The idea that Joey Votto's happiness is more important than placing the best starting 8 on the field every day is dumb. Joey Votto is increrdibly good, but he isn't more important than the Reds.

    So I think that ends the discussion. The Reds need to keep Votto happy and he probably wouldnt be happy about moving from his position to make room for a guy that was OPSing .175 points lower than Votto; while playing a level below Votto. And I don't blame him.
    Then tell him what you should have from the beginning.... we aren't moving you for someone better than you, we are moving you to make room for someone a lot better than Jonny Gomes or our other left field options and its going to help us win more ballgames and get back to the playoffs.

    And another thing. This weight thing with Alonso is an issue. I don't want to hear how "naturally" slow Alonso is until Alonso is in shape. If he gets in shape and is still "Sean Casey-slow" that is one thing. But he simply isnt in shape. He isnt Andre Smith fat, but he is fat. And that is slowing him down. He needs to take some spinning classes in the offseason and do a little road work. Eat some salad, switch from Bud-heavy to Bud Light. There is just no way that I am buying that a guy in his mid-20s is unable to be fast enough to play MLB-average LF.
    Look at his legs. If dude drops 10 lbs from his stomach it isn't going to change the tree trunks he has. Great, so he goes from a 4.6 to a 4.5. He is still going to be very slow. And frankly, I still don't care. Make the move that makes sense, not that one that suits a single player better than the team.

  13. #42
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    Re: Outfield question

    Bottom line, Chipper Jones (who Votto may some day be considered better than, but that's a long way off) moved to the outfield to help the team.

    I don't see the harm in asking. If he is very much opposed to it, then fine, but it's not like it would hurt to ask.

  14. #43
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    Re: Outfield question

    I have seen Yonder in person for about a season and I just don't see him playing left. He doesn't have the body nor the athleticism to play the outfield. The best option for the Reds is to trade him.

  15. #44
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Outfield question

    Quote Originally Posted by cinreds21 View Post
    I have seen Yonder in person for about a season and I just don't see him playing left. He doesn't have the body nor the athleticism to play the outfield. The best option for the Reds is to trade him.
    Depends on what you get for him. I would argue the best option is to play him at first and put Votto in left.

  16. #45
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    Re: Outfield question

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Depends on what you get for him. I would argue the best option is to play him at first and put Votto in left.
    I'd be happy with getting a short stop or a pitcher or two for him. I would say just swap a prospect for him that is in the same situation as Yonder is in, but that is not the norm.


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