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Thread: Umpires in the Postseason

  1. #31
    The Franchise sivman17's Avatar
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    Re: Umpires in the Postseason

    Quote Originally Posted by George Anderson View Post
    It is the same feeling a player gets when he makes a bone headed play or he makes an error. It is a mistake. It is part of the game. It isn't life or death. You can't change what happened so I try to forget about it and move on.

    You could.. if there was replay.
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  3. #32
    Socratic Gadfly TheNext44's Avatar
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    Re: Umpires in the Postseason

    People talk about the human element being essential for the game, but lets not forget that the reason why humans were used to make these calls originally, was only because that was the best option at the time.

    I am positive that if they had replay in the 1860's, they would have used it to help make calls. I see no reason why a billion dollar game refuses to use the best technology available to make the game as fair as possible. Does anyone think that having games decided by blown calls makes it a better game?
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

  4. #33
    Beer is good!! George Anderson's Avatar
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    Re: Umpires in the Postseason

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNext44 View Post
    People talk about the human element being essential for the game, but lets not forget that the reason why humans were used to make these calls originally, was only because that was the best option at the time.

    I am positive that if they had replay in the 1860's, they would have used it to help make calls. I see no reason why a billion dollar game refuses to use the best technology available to make the game as fair as possible. Does anyone think that having games decided by blown calls makes it a better game?
    I have no problem with replay being used as long as it doesn't get out of hand and is used 5-6 times a game. However this idea being bantered around about balls and strikes being called with a questec type system is not going to happen in our life times if ever.
    "Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard

  5. #34
    The Franchise sivman17's Avatar
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    Re: Umpires in the Postseason

    Quote Originally Posted by George Anderson View Post
    I have no problem with replay being used as long as it doesn't get out of hand and is used 5-6 times a game. However this idea being bantered around about balls and strikes being called with a questec type system is not going to happen in our life times if ever.
    I agree that it can get out of hand if not handled correctly. Frankly, I get annoyed watching college football cause it seems like they review EVERYTHING. I like the NFL how it's based on coach's challenge.

    MLB could do a similar thing where a manager gets 2 challenges a game. If he gets a challenge right, he gets to keep it. I'm not sure why in the NFL you have to get both right to get another challenge, but that's another discussion.

    Tennis does it better than anyone in my opinion. The player challenges take up virtually no time and keeps the game moving and the calls correct. The LLWS challenges this year took an average of 45 seconds. That's less time spent on managers coming out and arguing close calls.
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  6. #35
    Be the ball Roy Tucker's Avatar
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    Re: Umpires in the Postseason

    So we'll be seeing red beanbags flying out of the dugout?

    My overriding concern about integrating technology is disrupting the flow of the game. It has the potential to be Pandora's Box.

    Like many have mentioned, college football is ridiculous with the interruptions due to booth review when even I can see there is no dispute. Move on, please.

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  7. #36
    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
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    Re: Umpires in the Postseason

    I don't know if there are more bad umps now than there used to be or not.

    Umpires are gonna miss some calls, what tics me off is when they blow a call without asking the other members of the crew for help.

    I'll never forget the blown call by Ken Burkhart on a play at home plate in the 1970 World Series.

  8. #37
    Beer is good!! George Anderson's Avatar
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    Re: Umpires in the Postseason

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Madden View Post
    .

    I'll never forget the blown call by Ken Burkhart on a play at home plate in the 1970 World Series.
    This play alone makes my case for why umpiring today is light years better than it was 20-30 years ago. If you look at the pic, Burkhart was right in the middle of the play. In todays game, you will not see an umpire today that close to a play. They will be a good ten feet away from the play at the plate in order to get a good view of the play and also not accidentally get involved in the play.
    Last edited by George Anderson; 10-08-2010 at 04:50 PM.
    "Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard

  9. #38
    Go Reds Go! UKFlounder's Avatar
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    Re: Umpires in the Postseason

    The problem I have with instant replay is how do you decide which plays are reviewable and which are not? If you review everything, including balls & strikes, it could take forever.

    If you limit it, however, what happens when an error is made on a non-reviewable play? It will be just like now. Like in the NFL, if a cornerback grabs a WR's arm before the ball is there and the ref does not call it, the offense is out of luck, even though that play may cost them the game.

    Having some plays reviewable and some not seems half-(donkeyed) to me, but the other approach really is not reasonable either.

    Why do some errors need to be fixed and others fine to happen as they do?

  10. #39
    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
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    Re: Umpires in the Postseason

    Quote Originally Posted by George Anderson View Post
    This play alone makes my case for why umpiring today is light years better than it was 20-30 years ago. If you look at the pic, Burkhart was right in the middle of the play. In todays game, you will not see an umpire today that close to a play. They will be a good ten feet away from the play at the plate in order to get a good view of the play and also not accidentally get involved in the play.
    Yep, he got tangled up and actually had his back to the play.

  11. #40
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    Re: Umpires in the Postseason

    Joe Posnanski today wrote that we have a situation of where terrible umpiring calls are deciding games "while baseball gurus just sit back like the wrestling referee who doesn't notice that one guy brought a metal chair into the ring."
    As TheNext44 said, if the technology we have today had existed in the 1860s it would have been used. I like baseball tradition as much as anyone else, but I have no objection to night baseball even though the 1869 Red Stockings didn't use it. MLB should put one umpire up in a booth who can review replays and correct obviously blown calls in the field, even if we have to wait for technology that will properly call balls and strikes. Such an umpire could probably do so in less time than is now spent by managers and players arguing with umpires.
    Yes, bad calls by umpires have been part of the game. Allowing pitchers to throw baseballs blackened with mud, grease and anything else was once part of the game. Not wearing batting helmets was once part of the game. Only allowing white players to participate was once part of the game. Some traditions should be abandoned.
    I want the Reds to win the 2010 World Series. If that cannot occur then I am getting to the point of actually hoping an obviosuly blown call by an umpire decides the World Series, in the hope that perhaps that will get Bud Selig's head out of his rear end.
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  12. #41
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Umpires in the Postseason

    Quote Originally Posted by sivman17 View Post
    I agree that it can get out of hand if not handled correctly. Frankly, I get annoyed watching college football cause it seems like they review EVERYTHING. I like the NFL how it's based on coach's challenge.

    MLB could do a similar thing where a manager gets 2 challenges a game. If he gets a challenge right, he gets to keep it. I'm not sure why in the NFL you have to get both right to get another challenge, but that's another discussion.

    Tennis does it better than anyone in my opinion. The player challenges take up virtually no time and keeps the game moving and the calls correct. The LLWS challenges this year took an average of 45 seconds. That's less time spent on managers coming out and arguing close calls.
    The Big 10 handles replay exclusively via an official in the booth who reviews every play on the monitor as it occurs. When he needs time to verify a call, he signals the refs on the field that a replay is necessary. If there is indisputable video evidence, the call is corrected. If not, that's that and play continues.

    In the Big 10, this averages less than once per game. Studies of MLB have shown a similar, or just slightly higher, frequency. I think this is the best middle ground. It's quick. It cannot be abused by either team, not come up against a situation where an error was made but the manager ran out of protests. And it also takes the decision to replay out of the hands of the umps, so their embarrassment, stubbornness, or even over-cautiousness doesn't come in to play.

    We debate this issue like we have to come up with the perfect system. We don't, let's just come up with one that's better than what we've got now. It will never be perfect, but it's silly to accept potentially game-altering mistakes that can be easily and quickly rectified, often much more quickly than the current manager-waddles-out-to-throw-a-tantrum-and-the-umpires-have-to-huddle model.

    Limit it to plays that can quickly and easily be confirmed (fair-foul, out-safe on the bases, HR-not a HR, catch or trap and you get 90% of the way there in a completely painless fashion. Again, if it's not clear, it stands as called. Let's not over-complicate this. Even make it "fun" by displaying the call on the scoreboard, which would also be used to announce that the play is under review. The only complication I can think of is what to do with the runners when an out is called on a ball that actually fell in. But that can't be too hard to figure out.

    In the long run, I still think there's a better solution for balls & strikes (I prefer piloting a simple, hand-held red/green indicator linked to Pitchf/x to be used by the umps as an assistance mechanism, if only to help them learn the zone in real time). And of course we need a clear rule on what constitutes a swing (I'd go with barrel of the bat over any part of the plate).

    Really, we're arguing at the margins at this point. Let's at least made the common sense adjustments, see how it works, and go from there.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  13. #42
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: Umpires in the Postseason

    Quote Originally Posted by George Anderson View Post
    This play alone makes my case for why umpiring today is light years better than it was 20-30 years ago. If you look at the pic, Burkhart was right in the middle of the play. In todays game, you will not see an umpire today that close to a play. They will be a good ten feet away from the play at the plate in order to get a good view of the play and also not accidentally get involved in the play.
    George is absolutely correct. Today's umps do a darned fine job IMO. Sure, you'll always have the occasional missed call, but how often on those bang-bang plays are they spot on? Pretty much everytime.

    For those who disagree....check this out. Can you even imagine seeing something like this in TODAY'S game?

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  14. #43
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Umpires in the Postseason

    An imcompetent umpire just awarded Chase Utley first base on a ball that did not hit him. The replay clearly showed that Utley wasn't hit, but replay wasn't necessary. You do not get hit by a triple digit Chapman fastball and then trot to first base.
    Okay the umpire blew the call but the important thing we preserved our tradition of not using any technology that didn't exist in 1860 to check on umpires.
    Last edited by RedsBaron; 10-08-2010 at 09:11 PM.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

  15. #44
    Maple SERP savafan's Avatar
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    Re: Umpires in the Postseason

    Another incompetent umpire called Utley safe at 2nd...
    My dad got to enjoy 3 Reds World Championships by the time he was my age. So far, I've only gotten to enjoy one. Step it up Redlegs!

  16. #45
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Umpires in the Postseason

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron View Post
    An imcompetent umpire just awarded Chase Utley first base on a ball that did not hit him. The replay clearly showed that Utley wasn't hit, but replay wasn't necessary. You do not get hit by a triple digit Chapman fastball and then trot to first base.
    Okay the umpire blew the call but the important thing we preserved our tradition of not using any technology that didn't exist in 1860 to check on umpires.
    Clearly? I didn't think it was very clear. You can't make heads from tails on that replay. I think he wasn't hit, but I didn't think there was anything clear about it.

    The problem I had with that play is that the umpire flinched on the ball just like the batter and catcher, and I don't think he saw it. I think he let Utley's reaction dictate the call. But I don't think it was clear one way or another.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda


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