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View Poll Results: What should the Reds do in Left Field next season?

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  • Jonny Gomes in a similar role

    1 0.96%
  • Chris Heisey

    9 8.65%
  • Strict Platoon using existing players within organization

    3 2.88%
  • Acquire Legitimate high OBP leadoff hitter

    28 26.92%
  • Acquire Legitimate Cleanup hitter

    63 60.58%
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Thread: What do you want? Left Field

  1. #151
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: What do you want? Left Field

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    One play? Come on.....
    I know he had a few adventures out there in the first half. I never said he was flawless.

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  3. #152
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: What do you want? Left Field

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    I know that the "Gomes allowed ___ runs" is a popular argument made by his detractors, so I have the following 2 questions:

    1) If this is a fair argument, can we then start awarding credit like that for hitters? Like if Gomes hits a 3 run HR, can we then say he is responsible for 3 runs?
    He gets 1.94 runs on average....

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    2) A first cousin of this argument is if Gomes (or anyone) misplays a ball, the rest of the inning is now on them even if the pitcher walks the 40 man roster while giving up 7 HRs. Are we also allowed to place the blame of the misplay on the pitcher if he walks the pitcher with 2 outs or if he lets a weak hitting SS get a hit to keep the inning going?

    Just looking for balance.
    UZR assigns him roughly .75 to .8 runs per botch. If you're looking for balance, look to UZR.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  4. #153
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: What do you want? Left Field

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    I know he had a few adventures out there in the first half. I never said he was flawless.
    He'd was very bad before the all-star break and he was very bad after it.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  5. #154
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: What do you want? Left Field

    Quote Originally Posted by LoganBuck View Post
    I don't make this argument very often. Gomes is so pathetic in the field that it became a several times a week issue.

    The playoff game was the perfect example. He couldn't get to that ball Roy Halladay hit. Every other Cincinnati outfielder gets that ball. Volquez goes back to the dugout, maybe talks with the Bryan Pryce, drinks some Gatorade, and goes back out there with a different perspective. Disaster averted. Who knows in a 1-0 game, perhaps the game is played differently. Maybe they bunt more, whatever. They still got no hit.
    Ok. And maybe Volquez, in the heat of being in a classic pitching duel for the ages, overthrows and blows out his arm again.

    Seriously though, this is my point. Don't walk Ruiz with 2 out and don't key Halladay smoke a line drive off you. Do that and Gomes doesn't misplay the ball.

    What came first, the chicken or the egg?

  6. #155
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: What do you want? Left Field

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    He gets 1.94 runs on average....



    UZR assigns him roughly .75 to .8 runs per botch. If you're looking for balance, look to UZR.
    So in order for him to have allowed 9 runs in the Stl series, he would have needed to have about a dozen botches, correct?

  7. #156
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    Re: What do you want? Left Field

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Ok. And maybe Volquez, in the heat of being in a classic pitching duel for the ages, overthrows and blows out his arm again.

    Seriously though, this is my point. Don't walk Ruiz with 2 out and don't key Halladay smoke a line drive off you. Do that and Gomes doesn't misplay the ball.

    What came first, the chicken or the egg?
    Josh Hamilton, unfortunately.

  8. #157
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: What do you want? Left Field

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    So in order for him to have allowed 9 runs in the Stl series, he would have needed to have about a dozen botches, correct?
    According to UZR, on average....

    But it seems a little pedantic to evoke UZR as counterpoint to the argument that Gomes' defense is a significant liability in this fashion.... Clearly the point the poster was making was that Gomes defense was a game changer in the St Louis series and it's a valid point IMHO.

    And it's Volquez' fault that Gomes has no range? Pitching relies heavily upon the defense.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  9. #158
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: What do you want? Left Field

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    According to UZR, on average....

    But it seems a little pedantic to evoke UZR as counterpoint to the argument that Gomes' defense is a significant liability in this fashion.... Clearly the point the poster was making was that Gomes defense was a game changer in the St Louis series and it's a valid point IMHO.

    And it's Volquez' fault that Gomes has no range? Pitching relies heavily upon the defense.
    No, but it is Volquez' fault that he had zero command that game and continually fell behind hitters. Volquez was dead that game no matter what. Blaming Gomes for that mess of an outing is just protecting the true one with fault. Jonny is just an easier target due to the mob mentality.

    And no one is saying that Gomes didn't have issues that series. I even said from that point on he deteriorated in the field. But laying 9 runs of blame on him is as inaccurate as it gets.

  10. #159
    I hate the Cubs LoganBuck's Avatar
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    Re: What do you want? Left Field

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    No, but it is Volquez' fault that he had zero command that game and continually fell behind hitters. Volquez was dead that game no matter what. Blaming Gomes for that mess of an outing is just protecting the true one with fault. Jonny is just an easier target due to the mob mentality.

    And no one is saying that Gomes didn't have issues that series. I even said from that point on he deteriorated in the field. But laying 9 runs of blame on him is as inaccurate as it gets.
    I can lay four runs on him, on Colby Rasmus' grand slam alone. With two outs and the bases loaded, Gomes dropped a catch just in foul territory. The next pitch lands in front of the batters' eye. Sorry I know he didn't allow the hits or walks that led to the bases being loaded. He didn't throw the pitch that was hit for a grand slam, but Bronson Arroyo didn't ask for him to drop the inning ending flyball along the line. And yes it was catchable, and his effort was ugly.
    Last edited by LoganBuck; 10-18-2010 at 02:04 PM.
    The Sox traded Bullfrog the only player they've got for Shottenhoffen. Four-eyes Shottenhoffen a utility infielder. They've got a whole team of utility infielders.

  11. #160
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: What do you want? Left Field

    Quote Originally Posted by LoganBuck View Post
    I can lay four runs on him, on Colby Rasmus' grand slam. With two outs and the bases loaded, Gomes dropped a catch just in foul territory. The next pitch lands in front of the batters' eye. Sorry I know he didn't allow the hits or walks that led to the bases being loaded. He didn't throw the pitch that was hit for a grand slam, but Bronson Arroyo didn't ask for him to drop the inning ending flyball along the line. And yes it was catchable, and his effort was ugly.
    I'm not getting involved into the 'is Gomes really bad or just bad' debate, but this is still silly to blame someone for a grand slam when he didn't throw the pitch. Arroyo is the one that served it up, not Gomes. The Gomes mistake was a big one... but pitchers have to go back and pitch. It's their job. If they give up a home run, they're equally responsible for the failure.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  12. #161
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    Re: What do you want? Left Field

    Agree with Brutus. Look, we know certain things. Gomes is way below average in LF; a club serious about defense in that position wouldn't consider him as an everyday player. Volquez has made little progress with command over this career; if he had, he'd be a TO
    R guy. He hasn't; he's not; it's very unlikely he's going to. Nobody would care except that we traded the obvious RF-CF-LF solution for him (put Josh in any of the three--voila, LCS). Arroyo's the kind of pitcher who especially needs good defense b/c he's one slightly missed pitch away from the GS anytime three men are on base. Conclusion: trade Volquez, and somebody else, for the real solution in LF.

  13. #162
    Socratic Gadfly TheNext44's Avatar
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    Re: What do you want? Left Field

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp View Post
    I'm not getting involved into the 'is Gomes really bad or just bad' debate, but this is still silly to blame someone for a grand slam when he didn't throw the pitch. Arroyo is the one that served it up, not Gomes. The Gomes mistake was a big one... but pitchers have to go back and pitch. It's their job. If they give up a home run, they're equally responsible for the failure.
    Exactly, which is why the UZR measure of .78 runs per botched play makes sense.

    But Hokie hit on the most important point that means much more than exactly how many runs Gomes give up defensively.

    It's impossible to watch Gomes on a daily basis and concluded anything other than he is a below average LF defensively. And considering that he is at best an average LF offensively, it's clear the Reds needs to upgrade LF, especially with so many Reds pitchers who put a lot of balls in play.
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

  14. #163
    The Franchise sivman17's Avatar
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    Re: What do you want? Left Field

    I like the Kelly Johnson suggestion a lot. Another name that I haven't seen mentioned that I think would be worth a look is Scott Posednik. He will be 35 years old by Opening Day next year but he's pretty solid and durable. He'd also be a good candidate for a leadoff hitter. His leadoff numbers for his career are .281/.341/.384. No one on the Reds batting with at least 50 ABs at leadoff had better than a .251 BA this season.

    He doesn't have power like a lot of us want, but he would still be a major upgrade to what we have in my opinion in terms of overall LF play.

    Posednik has the option to void the Dodger's $2 million option.
    Votto for MVP

  15. #164
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: What do you want? Left Field

    Quote Originally Posted by sivman17 View Post
    I like the Kelly Johnson suggestion a lot. Another name that I haven't seen mentioned that I think would be worth a look is Scott Posednik. He will be 35 years old by Opening Day next year but he's pretty solid and durable. He'd also be a good candidate for a leadoff hitter. His leadoff numbers for his career are .281/.341/.384. No one on the Reds batting with at least 50 ABs at leadoff had better than a .251 BA this season.

    He doesn't have power like a lot of us want, but he would still be a major upgrade to what we have in my opinion in terms of overall LF play.

    Posednik has the option to void the Dodger's $2 million option.
    I've been on the Kelly Johnson bandwagon all year. Saw him in Atlanta several times before they cut him loose and loved the guy. If he can be had from the Diamondbacks, that would be where I'd look.

    Podsednik doesn't interest me much. If he still had his speed from 5 or 6 years ago, I'd be good with a .350 OBP, speedy leadoff guy. He doesn't seem to be that guy any longer though.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  16. #165
    The Franchise sivman17's Avatar
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    Re: What do you want? Left Field

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp View Post
    Podsednik doesn't interest me much. If he still had his speed from 5 or 6 years ago, I'd be good with a .350 OBP, speedy leadoff guy. He doesn't seem to be that guy any longer though.
    He's definitely not the 70 stolen base guy he was in '04, but he still had 35 SBs this season with a .342 OBP. Obviously he wouldn't be a long-term solution, but definitely better than Gomes. For the money I think he could be decent.
    Votto for MVP


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