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View Poll Results: What should the Reds do in Left Field next season?

Voters
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  • Jonny Gomes in a similar role

    1 0.96%
  • Chris Heisey

    9 8.65%
  • Strict Platoon using existing players within organization

    3 2.88%
  • Acquire Legitimate high OBP leadoff hitter

    28 26.92%
  • Acquire Legitimate Cleanup hitter

    63 60.58%
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Thread: What do you want? Left Field

  1. #91
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: What do you want? Left Field

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    Yeah, I know. I think he's either misjudging their intention to be a really good team or he's not willing to write about them possibly wanting to replace guys currently on the roster (that kind of stuff might rankle those players, and Fay may not be willing to risk that). Who knows.

    Personally, I'd be stunned if Jocketty left it at "we like our team" and did nothing of real consequence to build on the progress they've made. They've got some real trade chips, starting with starting pitching, with which to improve the major league roster, IMO.
    I agree, but there is one issue. He has to decide on Gomes within 2 weeks of the WS. Unless he can swing a deal for a LFer before then he might not want to risk losing him. There may be a market for him that exists and if they don't exercise, he may not want to be left with Heisey/Nix if it ends up that he can't swing a deal.

    I can see him exercising and saying all the right things while still looking to upgrade or find a platoon partner. Worst case is that he has a $1.8MM pinch hitter 4/5th OFer who hits lefties very well and who appears to be positive in the clubhouse. That's not a bad thing.

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  3. #92
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    Re: What do you want? Left Field

    I agree, but there is one issue. He has to decide on Gomes within 2 weeks of the WS. Unless he can swing a deal for a LFer before then he might not want to risk losing him. There may be a market for him that exists and if they don't exercise, he may not want to be left with Heisey/Nix if it ends up that he can't swing a deal.

    I can see him exercising and saying all the right things while still looking to upgrade or find a platoon partner. Worst case is that he has a $1.8MM pinch hitter 4/5th OFer who hits lefties very well and who appears to be positive in the clubhouse. That's not a bad thing.
    Agreed. Having Gomes in the fold gives the team protection in any trade talks for a LF.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  4. #93
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: What do you want? Left Field

    THose of you who think Gomes is better than Heisey and Nix, are you guys in the "LF defense is irrelevant camp? Or do you think that Gomes is so far and away the best hitter of the bunch such that it outweighs the clear and significant defensive differences?

    Gomes had a .758 OPS last year. Heisey was at .757. Nix was at .801.

    For as much as Heisey struggled in the 2nd half, so did Gomes -- and he had the benefit of playing nearly every day. I just can't believe how willing people are to so minimize the impact of his horrible defense and to act as if he's some great slugger. I know defensive metrics aren't up to the level of offensive metrics. I just don't get how willing people are to act like defense is such a tiny part of a position players value -- especially after the mistakes Gomes made down the stretch defensively which cost us games.

    Hesiey and Nix are no great shakes, but at least they provide positive value -- even when if they struggle at the plate. Gomes goes through long stretches of actively hurting the team.

    There is absolutely no reason a fear of losing Jonny Gomes should drive the decision to commit for him for 2011. Sacrificing flexibility for the sake of eminently replaceable talent is one of the hallmarks of mediocre organizations.
    Last edited by RedsManRick; 10-16-2010 at 12:46 PM.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  5. #94
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: What do you want? Left Field

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    THose of you who think Gomes is better than Heisey and Nix, are you guys in the "LF defense is irrelevant camp? Or do you think that Gomes is so far and away the best hitter of the bunch such that it outweighs the clear and significant defensive differences?
    I'm in the "I don't want to go into next year with Heisey as my LFer with no safety net" camp. When you are dealing with guys like these, I'd rather have more options than less and decide later. I'm not sure that Gomes would outproduce those guys next season, but that goes the other way as well. I think I'd rather have Gomes and Heisey with the option of using one or the other as a reserve than go in with Heisey and, for example Dorn, and face the prospect of both of them bottoming out. For as "bad" as Gomes was this season, he still had a fairly average offensive season. This may have been his floor. When we are talking about guys like Dorn and Heisey who's floors are undetermined, what happens if these guy pull a Dickerson and completely crap the bed in April/May?


    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Gomes had a .758 OPS last year. Heisey was at .757. Nix was at .801.
    Gomes had a .879 OPS in 2009. I'm not sure that we should only be using 2010 as our reference.

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    For as much as Heisey struggled in the 2nd half, so did Gomes -- and he had the benefit of playing nearly every day. I just can't believe how willing people are to so minimize the impact of his horrible defense and to act as if he's some great slugger. I know defensive metrics aren't up to the level of offensive metrics. I just don't get how willing people are to act like defense is such a tiny part of a position players value -- especially after the mistakes Gomes made down the stretch defensively which cost us games.
    I'm not sure that anyone is really minimizing defensive value. Speaking for myself, I think that the translation into runs is flawed. I do get that Gomes struggled in the field down the stretch, but I don't think that he was that much of an issue for most of the season.

    Before the STL series, I get that there were probably a ball or two that fell in that maybe someone else would have had. But I wonder if the STL series kicked off kind of like a self-fulfilling prophecy, because those miscues we saw down the stretch were not really representative of the rest of his year. If his glove in 2011 is like it was down the stretch in 2010, I'm on board with other options. But if someone were to tell me that he would play defense the way he did before he collapsed down the stretch, I'd feel more comfortable.


    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Hesiey and Nix are no great shakes, but at least they provide positive value -- even when if they struggle at the plate. Gomes goes through long stretches of actively hurting the team.
    Nix has 3 months in 2009-2010 where he was sub-.600. Bruce had 2. Phillips had one with another pretty close. Hanigan? 2. Stubbs had one, with another one on the edge. Ramon had one as well.

    Gomes has none with only 2 under .700.

    I'm not saying that the guy doesn't slump or that what you are saying is wrong, but as you can see he is hardly the only one who will go through a rough patch here or there. I think your statement seems more accurate when half of Redszone jumps on anything the guy does.

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    There is absolutely no reason a fear of losing Jonny Gomes should drive the decision to commit for him for 2011. Sacrificing flexibility for the sake of eminently replaceable talent is one of the hallmarks of mediocre organizations.
    Walt Jocketty is hardly mediocre. And if he exercises Gomes' option, I would back that decision anytime.

    This is eerily similar to the Dickerson/Gomes discussion from last year. That was a fun one.

  6. #95
    Member redsfandan's Avatar
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    Re: What do you want? Left Field

    Heisey was a rookie this year that could, and should, improve offensively with experience. To me it's more a matter of how much he'll improve.

    Gomes is a veteran player that does have some positives (hitting vs lefties and his positive clubhouse presence) but he is what he is. I liked Gomes alot when he was a cheap pickup that could be used in a platoon. And I liked his '09 season alot. But, the Reds gave him 511 abs this season when he shouldn't be a full-time player and now he's going to cost more if the option is picked up. And I just question whether he's worth it at that price when the dh isn't an option. I wouldn't pick up the option. It's possible that he'll be available in February again anyway but I think the Reds can use the extra money in better ways.
    Last edited by redsfandan; 10-16-2010 at 02:10 PM.
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  7. #96
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: What do you want? Left Field

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    THose of you who think Gomes is better than Heisey and Nix, are you guys in the "LF defense is irrelevant camp? Or do you think that Gomes is so far and away the best hitter of the bunch such that it outweighs the clear and significant defensive differences?

    Gomes had a .758 OPS last year. Heisey was at .757. Nix was at .801.

    For as much as Heisey struggled in the 2nd half, so did Gomes -- and he had the benefit of playing nearly every day. I just can't believe how willing people are to so minimize the impact of his horrible defense and to act as if he's some great slugger. I know defensive metrics aren't up to the level of offensive metrics. I just don't get how willing people are to act like defense is such a tiny part of a position players value -- especially after the mistakes Gomes made down the stretch defensively which cost us games.

    Hesiey and Nix are no great shakes, but at least they provide positive value -- even when if they struggle at the plate. Gomes goes through long stretches of actively hurting the team.

    There is absolutely no reason a fear of losing Jonny Gomes should drive the decision to commit for him for 2011. Sacrificing flexibility for the sake of eminently replaceable talent is one of the hallmarks of mediocre organizations.
    You present this like its a black and white issue. The issue has never been about LF defense being irrelevant. The issue is about choosing where to give up defense in order to add offense. Building a team isn't something that is done in a vacuum and getting players who fit together is as important as the individual contributions. All-offense-first teams don't work (as proven by the '05 Reds) and all defense teams don't work either. The question for me has always been about picking the spots where you compromise. I'd rather have a defense first guy like Janish at SS coupled with poor defending slugger in LF than have to choose the other way. Weak bats like Chris Dickerson in LF may help the run prevention in the "comparison to other LF" vacuum, but they leave you at a disadvantage to other teams on offense who have the likes of ManRam, Braun, Holliday, Gonzalez, Kemp, Ibanez, Soriano, Lee and a host of others in the line-up. The only way to make up for it is to compromise on defense at some other spot. Personally I'd rather have a defensively challenged slugger in LF if it allows me to have top notch defense at places more important on the defensive spectrum. Sticking a Jeff Keppinger at SS because you aren't getting enough production on the corners hurts the run prevention more than having a clumsy slugger out there who allows the team to play Janish instead.

    In the case of Gomes, his problem is simply not enough offense. His defense isn't all that pretty, but I wouldn't mind if he was providing a .900+ OPS out there. Switching to Heisey may be a relatively better move, but it would leave the Reds well below average in LF and they would be looking for offense at places where the substitution from the defense first guy may do more damage (which actually isn't improved by Gomes pedestrian production either IMO).
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

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  8. #97
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: What do you want? Left Field

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    You present this like its a black and white issue. The issue has never been about LF defense being irrelevant. The issue is about choosing where to give up defense in order to add offense.
    In the case of Gomes, his problem is simply not enough offense. His defense isn't all that pretty, but I wouldn't mind if he was providing a .900+ OPS out there. Switching to Heisey may be a relatively better move, but it would leave the Reds well below average in LF and they would be looking for offense at places where the substitution from the defense first guy may do more damage (which actually isn't improved by Gomes pedestrian production either IMO).
    I can agree with you on this mth. His defense, if you ask me, is basically on the borderline of acceptability. If he was hitting .280/.340/.560, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But he's a career .801 OPS hitter. I'm grateful he had a nice 2009 against RHP. But that's not who is he is. He's a platoon guy who had a career year in 2009. Given much more opportunity against them in 2010, he performed back at his career levels against them.

    If you just want a platoon RH bat who can play a LF that is only sometimes embarrasing, bring him back. But there's simply zero justification for giving him a full time gig and I see no reason to commit a 25 man roster spot to the guy in November. There's just no reason for it.

    As for the issue of being worried about not having depth behind Heisey or Nix, guys like Gomes aren't exactly hard to find. Heck, he had a much better year last year and he was still available for us to resign in the spring. Why would he be in greater demand after a worse season -- because he got more PA and accrued better counting stats? How many teams are desperate for a righty bat who crushes lefties, struggles versus righties and who can play passable defense on a good day? It's not that hard to find a guy like Jose Guillen, Ben Fransisco, Xavier Nady, Matt Diaz, Kevin Mench, Wladimir Balentien. What ever would we do if Gomes left!? How could we possibly replace him?

    Gomes is eminently replaceable. And that's really my point. If in 5 months, we haven't found anything better, fine. I'll take Gomes over Luis Terrero. But I'd rather just have Danny Dorn. And if Gomes does go somewhere else, we're not going to have much trouble finding somebody who can give us the same production for under $2M. Sign Gomes now, and you've basically just committed to below average LF production yet again. I don't see the argument.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  9. #98
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    Re: What do you want? Left Field

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    I'm not sure that anyone is really minimizing defensive value. Speaking for myself, I think that the translation into runs is flawed. I do get that Gomes struggled in the field down the stretch, but I don't think that he was that much of an issue for most of the season.

    Before the STL series, I get that there were probably a ball or two that fell in that maybe someone else would have had. But I wonder if the STL series kicked off kind of like a self-fulfilling prophecy, because those miscues we saw down the stretch were not really representative of the rest of his year. If his glove in 2011 is like it was down the stretch in 2010, I'm on board with other options. But if someone were to tell me that he would play defense the way he did before he collapsed down the stretch, I'd feel more comfortable.
    I'm not sure how anyone could've watched Gomes all season and not reached the conclusion that his defense is a serious liability and he was steady freddy in this regard from April.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  10. #99
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    Re: What do you want? Left Field

    You know, I almost can't believe I'm suggesting it, but maybe the Reds should try to sign Bill Hall. He's probably acceptable defensively in LF, and also maybe at 3B, and I think he'd be reasonably similar to Gomes offensively.
    "Reality tells us there are no guarantees. Except that some day Jon Lester will be on that list of 100-game winners." - Peter Gammons

  11. #100
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    Re: What do you want? Left Field

    Gomes in left reminds me of Griffey in right. Hard to find stats that articulate the difference.......but having Bruce in right tells us all we need to know about how tragic Gomes is in left. And the impact it has on the pitching.

    It's not all Gomes' fault. He's a spare tire that performed well in that role. Put him on a race car....and, you're limiting your potential in a big way.
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  12. #101
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: What do you want? Left Field

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    I can agree with you on this mth. His defense, if you ask me, is basically on the borderline of acceptability. If he was hitting .280/.340/.560, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But he's a career .801 OPS hitter. I'm grateful he had a nice 2009 against RHP. But that's not who is he is. He's a platoon guy who had a career year in 2009. Given much more opportunity against them in 2010, he performed back at his career levels against them.

    If you just want a platoon RH bat who can play a LF that is only sometimes embarrasing, bring him back. But there's simply zero justification for giving him a full time gig and I see no reason to commit a 25 man roster spot to the guy in November. There's just no reason for it.

    As for the issue of being worried about not having depth behind Heisey or Nix, guys like Gomes aren't exactly hard to find. Heck, he had a much better year last year and he was still available for us to resign in the spring. Why would he be in greater demand after a worse season -- because he got more PA and accrued better counting stats? How many teams are desperate for a righty bat who crushes lefties, struggles versus righties and who can play passable defense on a good day? It's not that hard to find a guy like Jose Guillen, Ben Fransisco, Xavier Nady, Matt Diaz, Kevin Mench, Wladimir Balentien. What ever would we do if Gomes left!? How could we possibly replace him?

    Gomes is eminently replaceable. And that's really my point. If in 5 months, we haven't found anything better, fine. I'll take Gomes over Luis Terrero. But I'd rather just have Danny Dorn. And if Gomes does go somewhere else, we're not going to have much trouble finding somebody who can give us the same production for under $2M. Sign Gomes now, and you've basically just committed to below average LF production yet again. I don't see the argument.
    Actually, I think Gomes should be an odd man out myself. I like the idea of adding a lefty bat who can be the primary LF or at least the big side of a platoon. Assumimg there just aren't enough resources (cash) for a big time guy in LF, my 5 man OF would ideally be Bruce in RF, Stubbs in CF, Nix as a LH PH and LH alternative for Stubbs in CF, Heisey who could play CF or RF if Stubbs or Bruce is hurt and/or be the RH half of a LF platoon. The 5th guy would be my hoped for LH Hitter from outside the organization (I think Matt Joyce is an under the radar slugger in the making who kills RH Pitching and is a good defender to boot).

    Where we differ is that I think Gomes and his counting stats will have some value on the market and I wouldn't just cut him loose. I'd exercise the option and try to deal him to a team looking for RH pop. If the market doesn't turn out, I'd try to deal him in the spring even if its for a middling prospect. In Spring I'd also give him a 1B glove and if he can't be dealt I'd let him be Votto's back-up who could give him an occassional day off against a tough lefty match-up and let him be RH power 1B/OF off the bench. At less than 2 Million, he'd be ok in that role.
    Last edited by mth123; 10-16-2010 at 03:25 PM.
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  13. #102
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: What do you want? Left Field

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    THose of you who think Gomes is better than Heisey and Nix, are you guys in the "LF defense is irrelevant camp? Or do you think that Gomes is so far and away the best hitter of the bunch such that it outweighs the clear and significant defensive differences?

    Gomes had a .758 OPS last year. Heisey was at .757. Nix was at .801.

    For as much as Heisey struggled in the 2nd half, so did Gomes -- and he had the benefit of playing nearly every day. I just can't believe how willing people are to so minimize the impact of his horrible defense and to act as if he's some great slugger. I know defensive metrics aren't up to the level of offensive metrics. I just don't get how willing people are to act like defense is such a tiny part of a position players value -- especially after the mistakes Gomes made down the stretch defensively which cost us games.

    Hesiey and Nix are no great shakes, but at least they provide positive value -- even when if they struggle at the plate. Gomes goes through long stretches of actively hurting the team.

    There is absolutely no reason a fear of losing Jonny Gomes should drive the decision to commit for him for 2011. Sacrificing flexibility for the sake of eminently replaceable talent is one of the hallmarks of mediocre organizations.
    I'm ready for the Gomes era to be done, so I suppose I'd prefer Heisey or Heisey/Nix if given the choice.

    But to be fair, Gomes' career OPS is .790, and I think he's more likely to hit that if given another chance. Heisey we simply don't know if he's the .935 hitter before the ASB, the .660 hitter after the break, or the .757 in-between hitter going forward.

    So while I've given my answer (go with Heisey if necessary), to be fair, is the decision really such a no-brainer if Gomes is back around his career OPS of .790 and Heisey is at his second-half OPS of (.660)--which was 2/3 of his plate appearances, to be fair?

    It doesn't seem like as much of a no-brainer if we look at it in that context. If Heisey is likely to be a .757 hitter or more (which isn't irrational to expect, since it was in fact his season total), then yes, I think Heisey should get the nod if they don't look outside the organization. Though personally I'd like Balentien to get a full crack, but that's neither here nor there.

    But anyhow, I don't think it's a slam-the-door shut debate. If Heisey were more proven, or at least more steady last year, perhaps it would be easier. Unfortunately he's still an unknown.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  14. #103
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: What do you want? Left Field

    Quote Originally Posted by VR View Post
    Gomes in left reminds me of Griffey in right. Hard to find stats that articulate the difference.......but having Bruce in right tells us all we need to know about how tragic Gomes is in left. And the impact it has on the pitching.

    It's not all Gomes' fault. He's a spare tire that performed well in that role. Put him on a race car....and, you're limiting your potential in a big way.
    It is a little unfair to compare Gomes to a fielder like Bruce. I get the point, but if it takes a stud defender to tell us hat we need to know about Gomes' fielding, then is he really that bad?

  15. #104
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: What do you want? Left Field

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    I'm not sure how anyone could've watched Gomes all season and not reached the conclusion that his defense is a serious liability and he was steady freddy in this regard from April.
    Not really. Those miscues he was making late in the season weren't happening with that frequency in the 1st half of the season.

  16. #105
    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
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    Re: What do you want? Left Field

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    I'm not sure how anyone could've watched Gomes all season and not reached the conclusion that his defense is a serious liability and he was steady freddy in this regard from April.
    Agreed. Gomes was terrible in the field all season and has been his whole career.

    I'm hoping the Reds acquire a new left fielder via trade (DeJesus? Sizemore? Kemp? Ellsbury?), but if not, I would rather start Heisey or Nix in left field over Gomes.
    Last edited by OnBaseMachine; 10-16-2010 at 08:08 PM.
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