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Thread: Anyone concerned with 3B?

  1. #1
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Anyone concerned with 3B?

    Both next year and beyond?

    I believe Scott Rolen, when healthy, can continue to be a productive hitter in the Reds' lineup. However, based on the last 6-8 weeks of this season, it's going to be obvious the Reds should not expect that to be true in more than 80-100 games next season. I imagine 2012 will be much worse.

    So my question: what do the Reds plan for 3B? Juan Francisco is neither qualified defensively or remotely ready offensively. His power is legit, but his lack of discipline and the huge holes in his swing make it unlikely he's anywhere near being more than Edwin Encarnacion redux.

    Is Todd Frasier the long-term solution? He showed improvements last year, but right now I'm personally having a hard time projecting him as a ceiling much higher than league average. If he reaches that plateau, I'd be more than happy with him being transitioned into the starting role over the next 2 years. But if that's his ceiling (and maybe I'm undervaluing him), is that realistic to expect?

    This current team, for this past year, was a good group and one that was good enough to do what it did. I fear the Reds taking too much a hands-off approach thinking lightning will strike twice next season, leaving too many holes to repeat this year's performance.

    I hope the Reds are aggressive seeking a LF upgrade and, if Frasier or someone else won't be counted on to produce next year, a 3B replacement. Maybe Miguel Cairo is the answer, I don't know. He had a great season, though late down the stretch I thought he fell back to earth a bit. Because of his defense, I can at least live with Janish at SS. But LF and 3B concern me.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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  3. #2
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Anyone concerned with 3B?

    The Reds have been having 3rd sacker issues forever, it's the most transient position in team history. They'll stick with Rolen is my guess and look for a BU with a Counsell like background to spell him.

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    Member Tom Servo's Avatar
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    Re: Anyone concerned with 3B?

    I think we definitely could use a bench bat who could play 3B, but beyond that I'm not too concerned with the position. I do think Frazier could be an answer but he still needs some more AAA at-bats.
    "Since I've been with the Reds in 1989, we've never had a farm system this loaded," Bowden said. "If we were the New York Yankees and had unlimited dollars, we could have traded for Colon, (Jeff) Weaver, Rolen, (Cliff) Floyd, (Kenny) Rogers and Finley and gotten them all -- and still held onto our top five prospects. That's an amazing statement."

  5. #4
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Anyone concerned with 3B?

    I wonder if Rolen's decline was more his numbers evening out rather than him giving us major cause for concern. Would you sign up for his overall numbers for next year?

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    Moderator The Operator's Avatar
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    Re: Anyone concerned with 3B?

    If The Reds are adding payroll this offseason as savafan suggests, I'd make a run at Cliff Lee and then empty the farm for Ryan Zimmerman.

    Let me dream, people.
    Quote Originally Posted by BCubb2003 View Post
    Don't worry. I'd say the game threads are about league average.
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    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Anyone concerned with 3B?

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    I wonder if Rolen's decline was more his numbers evening out rather than him giving us major cause for concern. Would you sign up for his overall numbers for next year?
    I'd most definitely take those numbers, though I'll be surprised if he repeats them in the aggregate next season. I'm thrilled to death he did it this year, but I'm not sure it will get that far. I'm most concerned with the number of games he's likely to be feeling good enough to produce consistently.

    I'm sure regression played a part, but there's no doubt that late in the year, he simply wasn't catching up to fastballs the way he was earlier. And it got him cheating on fastballs, exposing him further to offspeed stuff.

    His slugging went from .540 before the break down to .420 after. His K% went from 15% to 17%, which isn't precipitous, but yet noteworthy. Needless to say, though, 17 homers before the ASB to just 3 after is a pretty significant differential.

    And not included in those post-ASB numbers are the fact he struck out 8 times in 11 postseason at-bats.

    I'm not writing him off as a non-factor in 2011, but I think the Reds need to be tremendously prepared for about 150-200 plate appearances or more covered by someone other than Rolen at the 3B position--and preferably by someone producing at better than replacement value.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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    Member Captain Hook's Avatar
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    Re: Anyone concerned with 3B?

    Despite wearing down Rolen stayed healthy for the most part.It's possible that he could be even healthier next year considering he had no major setbacks and now has all winter to rest up.Hopefully he knows what his problem was this season and takes a different approach this offseason to make sure his now older body stays a little stronger in 2011.

    Yeah, I concerned though.

  9. #8
    Brett William Moore Will M's Avatar
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    Re: Anyone concerned with 3B?

    Yes.

    The team needs someone who can play 3B 40-80 games next year.

    Frazier may be a major league player at 3B/OF at some point but I'd expect 1/2 a year at AAA since he only played well there in the 2nd half.

    IMO Francisco is not the answer & will never be. I just don't think he can hit at the major league level. He has no plate discipline at all.

    I would prefer a better player than Cairo. If Bob goes 'cheap' then Cairo at close to league minimum plus Frazier at some point may be what we get but I'd like to aim higher.
    .

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    Re: Anyone concerned with 3B?

    He has recurring back problems and his numbers in the 2nd half I think were due to his back and shoulder problems. He really had trouble catching up with fastballs as the year went on. Rolen will still be the main 3B next year but they are going to have to rest him more to keep him in better shape throughout the year. I would think Rolen may give you 100 to 110 games but then you will need a good backup for 50 to 60 games to keep Rolen in good shape all year.

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    Re: Anyone concerned with 3B?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Servo View Post
    I think we definitely could use a bench bat who could play 3B, but beyond that I'm not too concerned with the position. I do think Frazier could be an answer but he still needs some more AAA at-bats.
    It's one of the reasons I like Uribe (from SF ... Type B FA). He can spell Rolen at 3B and also play SS.
    "The players make the manager, it's never the other way." - Sparky Anderson

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    Blowing away bad memories Redsfan320's Avatar
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    Re: Anyone concerned with 3B?

    The Reds have been having 3rd sacker issues forever, it's the most transient position in team history.
    Isn't 3B kinda like this across MLB. IE, fewer HOF 3B than any other position?

    320
    I'd rather listen to Kelch read the phone book than suffer through Thom Brennaman's attempt to make every instance on the field the most important event since the discovery of manned space flight. -westofyou

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    Beer is good!! George Anderson's Avatar
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    Re: Anyone concerned with 3B?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfan320 View Post
    Isn't 3B kinda like this across MLB. IE, fewer HOF 3B than any other position?

    320
    If you exclude managers who once played there and Negro League greats, there are only 12 from the major leagues: Frank "Home Run" Baker, Wade Boggs, George Brett, Jimmy Collins, George Kell, Freddie Lindstrom, Eddie Mathews, Paul Molitor, Cal Ripken Jr., Brooks Robinson, Mike Schmidt and Pie Traynor. Even so, Molitor played many games as a designated hitter, and Ripken played most of his career at shortstop
    "Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard

  14. #13
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Anyone concerned with 3B?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfan320 View Post
    Isn't 3B kinda like this across MLB. IE, fewer HOF 3B than any other position?

    320
    Not talking HOF level play, just the fact that they have never found a big star there since they began.

    They are the only team in original MLB whose leader in games played at the position is from the 19th century, (and a LH thrower to boot) the only original MLB team who doesn't have 3rd basemen who played a 1000 games for them.

    Their list is this


    Code:
    CINCINNATI REDS
    CAREER
    3B
    
    GAMES                            G     
    1    Hick Carpenter              890   
    2    Heine Groh                  883   
    3    Chris Sabo                  792   
    4    Tony Perez                  760   
    5    Grady Hatton                729   
    6    Arlie Latham                680   
    7    Harry Steinfeldt            637   
    8    Pete Rose                   629   
    9    Aaron Boone                 625   
    10   Charlie Irwin               603
    Groh is the best by far, Sabo might be the teams 1st steroids guy, Perez is known as 1st basemen, Lathem is a 19th century guy known more as a St. Louis player (sound familiar?) Steinfeldt is a trivia answer on another team, Rose played twice as many games as an OF, a 3rd more as a 1st basemen and an equal amount as 2nd basemen, Irwin also played in the 19th century!

    If you pare out the 19th century the Reds 3rd sacker with the most games is Babe Pinella a guy more known as an umpire whose final game was as the plate umpire for Larsen's perfect game.

    The Reds had 32 guys with 100 games (or better) At 3RD From 1954 To 2004, in that same time they had 14 SS with 26% of the games being played by McMillian, Cardenes, Conception and Larkin.

    It their Bermuda Triangle.

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    Re: Anyone concerned with 3B?

    I think having him bat 4th should be off the table next year.

    Francisco isn't the answer I don't think. I'd rather see Todd Frazier called up and have him in there when Rolen needs days off.

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    Re: Anyone concerned with 3B?

    I don't see why everyone is giving up so quickly on Juan. Obviously the organization thinks highly of him to have him around on the playoff roster as a bat off the bench. He has less than 100 AB's in the bigs. He has shown tremendous power all through the minors, sure he isn't going to put up a .400 OBP and probably not a .350 OBP. But if he can't get his SLG close to where it was in the minors he would be more than an adequate fill in part time for Rolen.

    Between Juan and Todd Frazier, we will be fine.
    "Today was the byproduct of us thinking we can come back from anything." - Joey Votto after blowing a 10-1 lead and holding on for the 12-11 win on 8/25/2010.


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