Who is Redszone's #6 prospect?

[kaldaniels]

Just a thought, but I'd like to see a "poll" done where the top 10-20 prospects are rated "MVP-style", with a 10-9-8-7-etc....points system rather than voting on prospect 1, then moving on to 2, etc....that may give us a better across-the-board look at how Redszone views their prospects. For instance, if I think Grandal is actually the 10th best prospect, this system eliminates that opinion from its rankings, as Grandal is out of the discussion by the time #10 rolls around. Not to say I don't enjoy these threads...I love them!

[Mario-Rijo]

Going Grandal here. I know there are some possible question marks with his defense, but there is little to no question that he's got a legitimate bat. He played and succeeded very well during his last year at Miami, which is a major baseball program.

There are questions about his bat.

[kaldaniels]

Interesting...Grandal was 5th in the last poll...but he's gonna win this one. (or so it seems)

[scott91575]

Interesting...Grandal was 5th in the last poll...but he's gonna win this one. (or so it seems)

Hamilton ran away with the last poll. Only half of those people need to vote for Grandal to get where we are with this poll.

[LoganBuck]

I voted Grandal. I can't see any way, I will put Juan Francisco in my top 10. I know that he has hit in the minors, but his defense is limited, and quite frankly major league pitchers seem to toy with him.

[osuceltic]

I voted Grandal. I can't see any way, I will put Juan Francisco in my top 10. I know that he has hit in the minors, but his defense is limited, and quite frankly major league pitchers seem to toy with him.

Here's his line in the majors over the past two seasons:

.316 .381 .447 .828

Sure, it's limited. But I wouldn't say he has been toyed with just yet. That's an OPS+ of 122, by the way.

The criticisms of Francisco's defense also crack me up, when the same people criticizing his defense ignore the fact that Alonso can only play one position and doesn't play that one especially well. And that position just happens to be occupied by the soon-to-be NL MVP. Does Juan need polish as a third baseman? Yes. Is he hopeless defensively at 23? Hardly.

But let's be honest ... a lot of those criticisms of his defense aren't really about his defense at all. Goes back to what I always say about Redszone ... If you have a high OBP, nothing bad you do matters. If you have a low OBP, nothing good you do matters.

[camisadelgolf]

Just a thought, but I'd like to see a "poll" done where the top 10-20 prospects are rated "MVP-style", with a 10-9-8-7-etc....points system rather than voting on prospect 1, then moving on to 2, etc....that may give us a better across-the-board look at how Redszone views their prospects. For instance, if I think Grandal is actually the 10th best prospect, this system eliminates that opinion from its rankings, as Grandal is out of the discussion by the time #10 rolls around. Not to say I don't enjoy these threads...I love them!

That would be ideal, but it brings two major problems with what we're doing:
1.) It's impossible to set up on the message board. In terms of voting, a poll is our only option. If we want to do the system you brought up, we'd have to do it through a different website.

2.) More importantly, it eliminates a lot of the discussions we're having. I think your suggestion is great and would give a more accurate portrayal of how RZ views Reds prospects, but all the voting and discussions would be accomplished in one giant sweep and include only a tiny fraction of the quality discussion that comes from these threads.

[Kc61]

But let's be honest ... a lot of those criticisms of his defense aren't really about his defense at all. Goes back to what I always say about Redszone ... If you have a high OBP, nothing bad you do matters. If you have a low OBP, nothing good you do matters.

Francisco's OBP has improved. Francisco's defense has improved based on watching his outings with the Reds. He certainly has a great arm which seems accurate as well.

He's one of those guys who is labeled. His defense is likened to EE, which is ridiculous because JF doesn't have the throwing problems. His OBP issues are viewed as static despite improvement the last two years.

I view him as a 23 year old prospect (who won't turn 24 until mid-next season) with great power who is dominating AAA offensively, has to improve his hitting against lefties, has the tools for third base but needs more polish, and whose plate discipline is improving.

Based on his tools and performance I see him as top five Reds prospect, but certainly top 6-9 based on his competition.

[Edd Roush]

Here's his line in the majors over the past two seasons:

.316 .381 .447 .828

Sure, it's limited. But I wouldn't say he has been toyed with just yet. That's an OPS+ of 122, by the way.

The criticisms of Francisco's defense also crack me up, when the same people criticizing his defense ignore the fact that Alonso can only play one position and doesn't play that one especially well. And that position just happens to be occupied by the soon-to-be NL MVP. Does Juan need polish as a third baseman? Yes. Is he hopeless defensively at 23? Hardly.

But let's be honest ... a lot of those criticisms of his defense aren't really about his defense at all. Goes back to what I always say about Redszone ... If you have a high OBP, nothing bad you do matters. If you have a low OBP, nothing good you do matters.

Haha, limited is an understatement. You are trying to draw conclusions from an 84 PA sample size. Granted, that's all we have to work with at the major league level, but I don't think the 7 big league BBs show that he has developed an eye at the plate.

I just don't like guys in general whose very average OBP are completely driven by a high BA. And as for JF not being hopeless defensively, I'm not so sure. I just see so many flashes of EE defensively with him that it's scary.

The sad thing is EE could draw a walk in the minors too...

[Kc61]

I just see so many flashes of EE defensively with him that it's scary.

The sad thing is EE could draw a walk in the minors too...

EE had a throwing problem with the Reds.

JF has a great arm, strong and accurate, and I haven't seen a throwing problem.

EE was basically a doubles hitter in the minor leagues. JF is much more of a power hitter, doubles, homers the works.

EE is a righty hitter. JF is a lefty bat who destroys righty pitching, although has some trouble still with lefties.

Other than their position, what similarity do you see?

[Edd Roush]

EE had a throwing problem with the Reds.

JF has a great arm, strong and accurate, and I haven't seen a throwing problem.

EE was basically a doubles hitter in the minor leagues. JF is much more of a power hitter, doubles, homers the works.

EE is a righty hitter. JF is a lefty bat who destroys righty pitching, although has some trouble still with lefties.

Other than their position, what similarity do you see?

I was only referring to defense in comparison to JF and EE. I cannot argue that they are much different hitters.

I guess in my limited experience of seeing Juan Francisco defensively in person, I saw his only error of the season (in Chicago). This has probably biased my opinion of him defensively. However, I have not seen the scouting reports you have about Juan having an accurate arm. I am not doubting his arm strength, nor did I ever doubt EE's arm strength. I just don't think I could trust either to play 3B everyday in the majors. Let's not forget that JF had 39 errors in his last full season in the minors (2009), that's more than EE ever had in one season in the minors.

[Kc61]

Let's not forget that JF had 39 errors in his last full season in the minors (2009), that's more than EE ever had in one season in the minors.

Yes, JF had a lot of errors some years. But he's only 23 years old and hopefully will make fewer errors with more experience.

The Reds seem to think JF can play third. They haven't moved him off the position. They have made other guys move their positions (Frazier, in particular) to keep third base available for JF.

So, we'll see. But there has to be some assumption of growth in evaluating these guys.

Keep in mind that JF is younger than Cozart (by almost two years) and Frazier. He's been around awhile so sometimes we may forget that he still has room and time to improve.

[Edd Roush]

Yes, JF had a lot of errors some years. But he's only 23 years old and hopefully will make fewer errors with more experience.

The Reds seem to think JF can play third. They haven't moved him off the position. They have made other guys move their positions (Frazier, in particular) to keep third base available for JF.

So, we'll see. But there has to be some assumption of growth in evaluating these guys.

Keep in mind that JF is younger than Cozart (by almost two years) and Frazier. He's been around awhile so sometimes we may forget that he still has room and time to improve.

I agree with everything you have written in this post. I just hope the Reds allow JF to work out the kinks in AAA next year and sign a legit back-up 3B so we don't have to rely on JF in the bigs next year. Looking over the list for who I will pick at #7, it is going to be hard for me not to pick JF simply because of his power potential and proximity to the bigs.

I just don't want the Reds to have to rely on him if Rolen goes down next year...

[mace]

I'm not certain that he's ready, but I've been thinking that Francisco might be the ideal platoon partner for Rolen next year. Of course, that' s provided he can play stable defense. If so, he will provide the lineup with significant power--an actual weapon, if he can harness it. That's not a bad thing for a guy you're really counting on just to spell the starter. And it will break him in slowly to a position that he'll likely inherit, if he produces. I could see him starting 60-70 games against righthanders. The experience would also make him a better pinch-hitter. A bonus benefit is that he would be tethered to Rolen and learn how to go about his business as a big-leaguer.

[*BaseClogger*]

If you have a high OBP, nothing bad you do matters. If you have a low OBP, nothing good you do matters.

Sounds like a good rule!