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Thread: Devin Mesoraco

  1. #16
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    Re: Devin Mesoraco

    Why wouldn't Hanigan and Mesoraco be a full time platoon? At least for a year? Who does it hurt? Hanigan gets rest, like he did in 2010, while Mesoraco gets his feet wet. Not only that, they would both likely be good seventh place hitters, Hanigan showing on-base skills and Mesoraco power.

    Between them (again, if Mesoraco continues to hit as he did in 2010), you could see a line of 280/350/450 next season.

    That sounds like a great platoon to me.
    Mesoraco needs to play. He's not like Ramon Hernandez, who needs to rest. You stunt his development as a receiver and as a hitter if he's sitting half the time. As Brutus notes, you're burning a year of service time while you do that. He'd be better off in AAA.

    No team platoons its high ceiling prospects all year long.
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  3. #17
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Devin Mesoraco

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Back-up schmack-up. It's a platoon. It was a platoon this season. It would have been a platoon the year before, had Hernanez been healthy all year. Mesoraco will play three times a week or more.

    That should provide enough need to put him on the big club despite cost.

    And, I really disagree that you don't put your best players on the major league club. Good teams do. The Reds may not have a few years ago, but they should now. (That said, talent does not equal best, and some guys need time in their respective spots at the AAA level.)
    The original post said Hanigan getting a majority of the starts. Are you reading a different discussion than I? No one said anything about a platoon. The question was whether or not Mesoraco should start the year as the backup catcher while getting the token occasional start that backups usually get.

    Unless Mesoraco is getting the majority of the starts, he should start the year in AAA. It doesn't seem like much, but those extra 10-12 plate appearances every week he could be getting in AAA would be better suited to his development than being in a "platoon."

    Also, there is not an organization in baseball that always plays its best players when dealing with prospects. Every single team delays service time, manipulates options and attempts to achieve maximum roster and payroll flexibility when they can. There is no team in baseball, outside of perhaps the Yankees, that wants to put its best prospects on the Major League club just so they have their best players on the roster at risk of development and cost.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  4. #18
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    Re: Devin Mesoraco

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool View Post
    Or, the Reds could sign Coco Crisp for $2-4 million and gain a LF/leadoff hitter without losing any prospects.
    With a .332 lifetime OBA, I'm not sure Coco is the answer.

  5. #19
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    Re: Devin Mesoraco

    I think if Devin is good enough to be the starting catcher, then bring him up and let him start, but if it is going to be a platoon or backup role for him, let him get some playing time in AAA since he had so little time there.

    I know catcher is a different position than others, with the defensive responsibilities, but once he's a Red, I'd like to see him treated like Stubbs or Bruce - put him in the lineup and let him play, even through the expected struggles. Sitting him on the bench will not help his bat develop. I guess I can see where such a role might help him understand some of the defensive and pitch-calling aspects of the game at a major league level, but I think that playing at AAA may be more beneficial to him than a part-time role in the majors would be.

  6. #20
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    Re: Devin Mesoraco

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp View Post
    The original post said Hanigan getting a majority of the starts. Are you reading a different discussion than I? No one said anything about a platoon. The question was whether or not Mesoraco should start the year as the backup catcher while getting the token occasional start that backups usually get.

    Unless Mesoraco is getting the majority of the starts, he should start the year in AAA. It doesn't seem like much, but those extra 10-12 plate appearances every week he could be getting in AAA would be better suited to his development than being in a "platoon."

    Also, there is not an organization in baseball that always plays its best players when dealing with prospects. Every single team delays service time, manipulates options and attempts to achieve maximum roster and payroll flexibility when they can. There is no team in baseball, outside of perhaps the Yankees, that wants to put its best prospects on the Major League club just so they have their best players on the roster at risk of development and cost.
    Is the sarcasm really needed, Brutus? This should be a civil discussion and nothing said on either side of the arguement deserves a crack like that.

    I merely pointed out that the Reds have developed a track record of playing their catchers about equally. Mesoraco would be a back-up in name only.

    As to the extra 10-12 appearances each week, I guess I side with the idea that developing him at the major league level against major league pitching would be just as effective, assuming he's ready.

    As to your assertion that every team delays players who are obviously ready, I have to disagree. The Cardinals don't. Historically, neither do the Yankees, Twins, A's, Boston and a host of other teams, both big and small market. (Again, this assumes the player is indeed ready to go to the big leagues. Talent and readiness are two separate issues.)

    For example, just over the past two years of Super Two examples, Tampa started Even Longoria even though it affected his arb status and they had other options. Why? Because he was their best option. Same with St. Louis and Chris Perez and Chris Duncan, Los Angeles, with Ethier and Martin, and Florida with Nolasco and, well, everyone they play.

    Smart business, IMO, is to win. Period. Winning usually requires a team's best players. A smart team with an eye toward competing for division crowns would do well to play its best players.
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  7. #21
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    Re: Devin Mesoraco

    Mesoraco needs at bats in AAA. He may well force his way on the team in spring training if he continues his progress, but otherwise, he needs steady playing time.

    And, we see ourselves, rightfully so, in a pennant race. You need experience and depth at catcher. If he tears it up in AAA, all the better. It gives us more trade flexibility.
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  8. #22
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    Re: Devin Mesoraco

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Is the sarcasm really needed, Brutus? This should be a civil discussion and nothing said on either side of the arguement deserves a crack like that.

    I merely pointed out that the Reds have developed a track record of playing their catchers about equally. Mesoraco would be a back-up in name only.

    As to the extra 10-12 appearances each week, I guess I side with the idea that developing him at the major league level against major league pitching would be just as effective, assuming he's ready.

    As to your assertion that every team delays players who are obviously ready, I have to disagree. The Cardinals don't. Historically, neither do the Yankees, Twins, A's, Boston and a host of other teams, both big and small market. (Again, this assumes the player is indeed ready to go to the big leagues. Talent and readiness are two separate issues.)

    For example, just over the past two years of Super Two examples, Tampa started Even Longoria even though it affected his arb status and they had other options. Why? Because he was their best option. Same with St. Louis and Chris Perez and Chris Duncan, Los Angeles, with Ethier and Martin, and Florida with Nolasco and, well, everyone they play.


    Smart business, IMO, is to win. Period. Winning usually requires a team's best players. A smart team with an eye toward competing for division crowns would do well to play its best players.
    It wasn't a crack. There wasn't any malice intended. It simply was a rhetorical response to something that kind of came out of left field for me. I simply thought we were responding to the idea of a backup situation, but perhaps you interpreted something differently than I did.

    I think the Reds treating their catchers the way they have doesn't necessarily reflect an organizational approach as much as not really having much production from the position from any one player. Certainly there hasn't been someone heralded like Mesoraco come up through the ranks since Dan Wilson, and Wilson probably never had ceiling with the bat that Mez has.

    As for the bolded part...as I said before... teams don't delay players to be backups. The examples you mention are guys that are brought up to start. If Mesoraco wins the job and comes up to be an every day player, or start the traditional 5-6 games a week that catchers do, as I said... I'm all for the move. But I can't reiterate this enough... teams don't bring prospects up to sit the bench or play sparingly. If the Reds are going to start the service, arbitration and option clocks for Mesoraco, it should be based on the idea that he's going to get a lion's share of the opportunities.

    Let's remember: this kid has had just one (1) great season in the minors. Prior to this year, he OPS'd .580, .710 and .692 in his first three seasons. For a catcher, that's not terrible by any means. But he hasn't established any sort of longevity or track record to count on him unless he truly excels in spring.

    So wouldn't it be safer not to jeopardize all the business aspects of this decision without further data, unless it's because he's coming to be the starter? I'd hate to think the Reds start his service clock to be a backup, and then he struggles mightily. Yes, he could absolutely be as good as Ramon. There's also the chance he won't be ready for that kind of responsibility.

    If, in spring training, he's just too good to ignore, and the Reds decide they want to give him a crack at being the starter next year, I'm OK with that. Anything less and it should be back to Louisville for a bit longer.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  9. #23
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    Re: Devin Mesoraco

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    With a .332 lifetime OBA, I'm not sure Coco is the answer.
    You are correct that is just to high for Dusty to bat lead-off.

  10. #24
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    Re: Devin Mesoraco

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp View Post
    It wasn't a crack. There wasn't any malice intended. It simply was a rhetorical response to something that kind of came out of left field for me. I simply thought we were responding to the idea of a backup situation, but perhaps you interpreted something differently than I did.

    I think the Reds treating their catchers the way they have doesn't necessarily reflect an organizational approach as much as not really having much production from the position from any one player. Certainly there hasn't been someone heralded like Mesoraco come up through the ranks since Dan Wilson, and Wilson probably never had ceiling with the bat that Mez has.

    As for the bolded part...as I said before... teams don't delay players to be backups. The examples you mention are guys that are brought up to start. If Mesoraco wins the job and comes up to be an every day player, or start the traditional 5-6 games a week that catchers do, as I said... I'm all for the move. But I can't reiterate this enough... teams don't bring prospects up to sit the bench or play sparingly. If the Reds are going to start the service, arbitration and option clocks for Mesoraco, it should be based on the idea that he's going to get a lion's share of the opportunities.

    Let's remember: this kid has had just one (1) great season in the minors. Prior to this year, he OPS'd .580, .710 and .692 in his first three seasons. For a catcher, that's not terrible by any means. But he hasn't established any sort of longevity or track record to count on him unless he truly excels in spring.

    So wouldn't it be safer not to jeopardize all the business aspects of this decision without further data, unless it's because he's coming to be the starter? I'd hate to think the Reds start his service clock to be a backup, and then he struggles mightily. Yes, he could absolutely be as good as Ramon. There's also the chance he won't be ready for that kind of responsibility.

    If, in spring training, he's just too good to ignore, and the Reds decide they want to give him a crack at being the starter next year, I'm OK with that. Anything less and it should be back to Louisville for a bit longer.
    Once again, Brutus, if Mesoraco plays half the time, he would be a back-up? Perhaps in name only. And I really could care less about what he's labelled, as long as he helps the team win.

    And that's the crux of it.

    This assumes Mesoraco is the best fit, which, as you say, is the $64,000 question. If the Cincinnati brass thinks he's good enough to be the second catcher (or the first), he should be, regardless of arbitration clock. The best players play. Or at least they should.
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  11. #25
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    Re: Devin Mesoraco

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Once again, Brutus, if Mesoraco plays half the time, he would be a back-up? Perhaps in name only. And I really could care less about what he's labelled, as long as he helps the team win.

    And that's the crux of it.

    This assumes Mesoraco is the best fit, which, as you say, is the $64,000 question. If the Cincinnati brass thinks he's good enough to be the second catcher (or the first), he should be, regardless of arbitration clock. The best players play. Or at least they should.
    Not gonna budge even a little and allow that sometimes it is best for a player to be seasoned a bit in the minors? Even if he is a backup/#2 catcher?

  12. #26
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    Re: Devin Mesoraco

    I've said in each of my last three posts, there is a difference between talented and ready. Chapman, for example, was talented enough last season to play in the majors right away; however, Cincinnati officials insisted he wasn't ready.

    Fair enough.

    If the Red brass believe Mesoraco is ready and that he's among the two most talented catchers available, he should be on the opening day roster.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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  13. #27
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    Re: Devin Mesoraco

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    I've said in each of my last three posts, there is a difference between talented and ready. Chapman, for example, was talented enough last season to play in the majors right away; however, Cincinnati officials insisted he wasn't ready.

    Fair enough.

    If the Red brass believe Mesoraco is ready and that he's among the two most talented catchers available, he should be on the opening day roster.
    Not if the difference between him and someone else is minimal given that he is only going to be playing 3 times a week and that in turn stunts his growth for a full year or more.

  14. #28
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    Re: Devin Mesoraco

    Sigh.

    If the Reds say he's ready and if he's the best choice for the job, he should be playing in Cincinnati.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
    -- Christy Matthewson
    "Show me a good loser and I'll show you an idiot."
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  15. #29
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: Devin Mesoraco

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Sigh.

    If the Reds say he's ready and if he's the best choice for the job, he should be playing in Cincinnati.
    For what job? A catcher playing less than half the time?

  16. #30
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    Re: Devin Mesoraco

    There seems to be an assumption that Mesaroco would be sitting on the bench picking his nose and spitting sunflower seeds when he's not playing. There is a lot of learning curve for the position, yet the handling wisdom seems to treat him as any other position player--"needs to play every day if top prospect."

    Absent being the second coming of Johnny Bench, I can see a lot of benefit from bringing him up early and letting him sit and watch Hanigan handle pitchers, talk with him about his observation in between innings, then go out there and do it himself 3 times a week. That seems like a necessary piece of development for a catcher. If he's ready OD to handle big league catching duties, let the pup grow up a little. Let him be mentored for awhile at the big league level.
    Last edited by traderumor; 11-07-2010 at 03:57 PM.
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