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Thread: Devin Mesoraco

  1. #31
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: Devin Mesoraco

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    There seems to be an assumption that Mesaroco would be sitting on the bench picking his nose and spitting sunflower seeds. There is a lot of learning curve for the position, yet the handling wisdom seems to treat him as any other position player--"needs to play every day if top prospect."

    Absent being the second coming of Johnny Bench, I can see a lot of benefit from bringing him up early and letting him sit and watch Hanigan handle pitchers, talk with him about his observation in between innings, then go out there and do it himself 3 times a week. That seems like a necessary piece of development for a catcher. If he's ready OD to handle big league catching duties, let the pup grow up a little. Let him be mentored for awhile at the big league level.
    Absolutely. In Spring Training.

    Let him force his way up. He skyrocketed this year, but I'm not gonna hand him the keys to the job quite yet.

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  3. #32
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    Re: Devin Mesoraco

    Absolutely. In Spring Training.
    Yep. And in September. When it's time for Mesoraco to play in the majors, he's the guy. And he's still being mentored by the backup -- but that's a guy like Corky Miller, not Hanigan. Hanigan is no longer a backup.

    As I've said, there is not room for Mesoraco and Hanigan. If you think Mes may be the man, you have to be willing to deal Hanigan.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  4. #33
    Brett William Moore Will M's Avatar
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    Re: Devin Mesoraco

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    Yep. And in September. When it's time for Mesoraco to play in the majors, he's the guy. And he's still being mentored by the backup -- but that's a guy like Corky Miller, not Hanigan. Hanigan is no longer a backup.

    As I've said, there is not room for Mesoraco and Hanigan. If you think Mes may be the man, you have to be willing to deal Hanigan.
    1) I like Hanigan a lot. I am comfortable with Hanigan/Corky until Mes is ready for his shot.

    2) I am not convinced Hanigan is a major league catcher that can catch 130 games in a season. He has never done it. In 2010 we got strong performance out of both catchers because they were rested. Catching can wear a guy down over a 162 game season. It works out quite well that Mes will be ready sooner than later. If Hanigan starts to wear down as the primary catcher early in 2010 then Mes can get the majority of the starts in the 2nd half of 2010.

    3) Even if I thought Mes might be 'the man' there is no way I would deal Hanigan now. NO WAY. If the catchers were Mes/Corky & Mes stumbled we would be totally up a creek witout a paddle.

    4) If Hanigan has another solid year & Mes arrives and does well THEN we could deal Hanigan next offseason if we wanted to. IMO doing so before then seems awfully risky. Mes is a grade A prospect. However that is a lot different than a solid major league catcher.
    .

  5. #34
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Devin Mesoraco

    I think teams go with catching tandems all the time. Nothing wrong with a team trying to win the world series going with its talented youngster splitting time with a young veteran. Hanigan and Corky for two or three months with Hanigan playing 75% of the time. Hanigan and Mes in the second half with Mes getting 65% or so of the PT. Its not that hard and not out of line at all. It beats the heck out of giving $4 Million or so to Ramon or some one similar. Spend that money in a need area.

    If Mes establishes himself, Hanigan can be dealt after the 2011 season.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  6. #35
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Devin Mesoraco

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Sigh.

    If the Reds say he's ready and if he's the best choice for the job, he should be playing in Cincinnati.
    But it's not that simple. We're not fielding teams in a vacuum. When you have money, development and other factors, it's not as simple as fielding the best 25 players. If it were, that kind of thinking would make it hard for a team with a middle-of-the-pack payroll to consistently compete.

    The Reds only have a finite amount of time before Mesoraco starts to make a lot of money. They have even less amount of time to make sure he's developed properly and getting all the necessary work in before he's able to produce at the price they'll have to pay for his work. He is talented, but there's also a good chance the difference between he and whatever replacement (Corky Miller?) provides in the occasional starts is not enough to overcome all the salary and personnel factors that come with the territory.

    To say the best 25 players should be on the roster is idealistic. It's a good ideal, but you can't always operate that way when you have finance constraints.

    There are a lot more problems that could arise in a few years from now by the Reds putting him on the roster before it's necessary. More than it's worth for his time spent as a backup. I don't think the reward outweighs the risk unless it's for 120-130 games as a starter this year. Otherwise, the difference is negligible and it's better off getting him another 4 months in Louisville.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  7. #36
    Member VR's Avatar
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    Re: Devin Mesoraco

    Would be nice if he decided to replicate Posey's NL debut.
    Baseball is like church. Many attend, few understand

  8. #37
    Socratic Gadfly TheNext44's Avatar
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    Re: Devin Mesoraco

    If the Reds think Mes in the Majors gives them the most competative team on the field, then that will be worth far more in the long run, than the money saved from keeeping in the minors.

    Staying competative year after year is the best use of a team's payroll. Saving money is only important when the team is losing.
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

  9. #38
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: Devin Mesoraco

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNext44 View Post
    If the Reds think Mes in the Majors gives them the most competative team on the field, then that will be worth far more in the long run, than the money saved from keeeping in the minors.

    Staying competative year after year is the best use of a team's payroll. Saving money is only important when the team is losing.
    I don't care too much about the financial aspect. I want Mes playing the majority of the time. If he won't be doing that in Cincy this season, stick him in AAA and let him force the issue.

  10. #39
    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
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    Re: Devin Mesoraco

    I don't know what Walt will do. I'd start the season with Hannigan and Corky, let Mesoraco play everyday in AAA.

    If Mesoraco forces the issue flip-flop him and Corky.

    JMHO.

  11. #40
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    Re: Devin Mesoraco

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp View Post
    But it's not that simple. We're not fielding teams in a vacuum. When you have money, development and other factors, it's not as simple as fielding the best 25 players. If it were, that kind of thinking would make it hard for a team with a middle-of-the-pack payroll to consistently compete.
    And yet just this type of thing is done in St. Louis, Minnesota, Florida, and other teams.

    Just win, baby.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp View Post
    The Reds only have a finite amount of time before Mesoraco starts to make a lot of money. They have even less amount of time to make sure he's developed properly and getting all the necessary work in before he's able to produce at the price they'll have to pay for his work. He is talented, but there's also a good chance the difference between he and whatever replacement (Corky Miller?) provides in the occasional starts is not enough to overcome all the salary and personnel factors that come with the territory.
    If Mesoraco is a better player than Hernandez or other possible choice, I want Mesoraco on my team. If better players play, the team wins more. If the team wins more, more people come to see them. If more people come to see them, payroll goes up. If payroll goes up... I hope you get the idea by now.

    An arbitration clock and free agency mean little next to winning more games.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp View Post
    To say the best 25 players should be on the roster is idealistic. It's a good ideal, but you can't always operate that way when you have finance constraints.
    Yet Florida does just that and their payroll is well under Cincinnati's. And St. Louis does. And LA does. And Minnesota.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp View Post
    There are a lot more problems that could arise in a few years from now by the Reds putting him on the roster before it's necessary. More than it's worth for his time spent as a backup. I don't think the reward outweighs the risk unless it's for 120-130 games as a starter this year. Otherwise, the difference is negligible and it's better off getting him another 4 months in Louisville.
    You keep saying back-up. You know that's not exactly true. Yet you keep saying it. Frustrating to argue against someone who uses a strawman like that.

    Let me repeat my assertion:
    The Reds have shown a propensity to platoon catchers when given the opportunity. Mesoraco would be a part of a platoon and would likely play in 100+ games if he was to start the season in Cincinnati.
    Mesoraco would continue to learn at the major league level from Hanigan and major league coaches.
    Mesoraco would also learn to hit at the highest level against the best pitchers, but could also be coddled if needed by playing him against BOR starters and middle relievers, if need be.
    And, finally, I'm assuming Cincinnati would think he'd be the best choice and ready for the majors.
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  12. #41
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Devin Mesoraco

    While everyone realizes that decisions like this aren't made in a vacuum, I don't think there is an overwhelming amount of players that have prematurely priced themselves out of a system. Those things tend to take care of themselves.

    If a guy is ready to play in MLB and it turns out he is going to get expensive a little premature, the team is not entirely out of hedging these bets, such as buying out some arbitration years with a modest 1st LT contract.

    All the hand wringing over prospects getting expensive is exactly how to return to the wonder years of Lindner. You don't sign Chapman's if you are going to start managing the roster like an accountant.
    Can't win with 'em

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  13. #42
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Devin Mesoraco

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    All the hand wringing over prospects getting expensive is exactly how to return to the wonder years of Lindner. You don't sign Chapman's if you are going to start managing the roster like an accountant.
    Almost every team in baseball does this. Lets not pretend its some 'cheap' way of operating.

  14. #43
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Devin Mesoraco

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    And yet just this type of thing is done in St. Louis, Minnesota, Florida, and other teams.

    Just win, baby.
    You really think that's the case? You think these teams call up their best prospects to be in non-starting roles?

    A lot of evidence suggests the contrary

    The Marlins had Mike Stanton in spring training. Despite his near 1.100 OPS in spring training, they left him off the 40-man roster until June 8 when they purchased his contract and called him up. Do you really think he was left off the roster for two months because he wasn't one of their 25 best players after spring?

    Logan Morrison wasn't added to the roster until July 27. Did they call him up to be a backup for Gaby Sanchez? Nope. They put him in left field and traded away Cody Ross.

    The Twins were forced to put Joe Mauer on the DL out of spring in 2004, but when they activated him, they immediately made him their starting catcher.

    In 2006, since you mentioned Chris Duncan... you know he was optioned to start the year, right? He was sent down and recalled on May 21. Any guesses why they did that?

    Teams do play their best prospects--when they're willing to play them as starters. They don't call them up to be backups.



    If Mesoraco is a better player than Hernandez or other possible choice, I want Mesoraco on my team. If better players play, the team wins more. If the team wins more, more people come to see them. If more people come to see them, payroll goes up. If payroll goes up... I hope you get the idea by now.

    An arbitration clock and free agency mean little next to winning more games.



    Yet Florida does just that and their payroll is well under Cincinnati's. And St. Louis does. And LA does. And Minnesota.
    But again, those teams don't do it until they're ready to commit to their being starters. You only get 3 years of service out of a player before he starts making money. And you want to waste one of those years of service as a non-starter? Why? Development and service is too precious to spend as a backup. You can find cheap replacements to fill the void that will give you production you can count on. Mesoraco, at this point, would be a complete flier. He may not even be a productive backup, so no sense in using him until it's as a starter.



    You keep saying back-up. You know that's not exactly true. Yet you keep saying it. Frustrating to argue against someone who uses a strawman like that.
    You're the one using the strawman. The original post in this thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Santo Alcala
    I feel pretty comfortable with the Reds giving him a share of the catching duties to open the season (with Hanigan getting the majority of the starts)
    That isn't a backup?

    Let me repeat my assertion:
    The Reds have shown a propensity to platoon catchers when given the opportunity. Mesoraco would be a part of a platoon and would likely play in 100+ games if he was to start the season in Cincinnati.
    Mesoraco would continue to learn at the major league level from Hanigan and major league coaches.
    Mesoraco would also learn to hit at the highest level against the best pitchers, but could also be coddled if needed by playing him against BOR starters and middle relievers, if need be.
    And, finally, I'm assuming Cincinnati would think he'd be the best choice and ready for the majors.
    You say tomato I say tom-ah-to. Platoon. Backup. Non-starter. Call it whatever you like. But what the Reds have done with catchers has nothing to do with what they may or may not do with Mesoraco. And I'm guessing that Walt Jocketty wouldn't have him start the season just to be in a platoon.

    If the Reds knew they would get the kind of production out of Mesoraco he's capable of, just start him if he's earned the job to begin with. Otherwise, since it can't be guaranteed he'll even produce right away, it potentially makes him no better out of the gate than Corky Miller and all they've done is burnt an option if they're forced to correct the mistake, started his arbitration clock and gotten him closer to making more money.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  15. #44
    Brett William Moore Will M's Avatar
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    Re: Devin Mesoraco

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Madden View Post
    I don't know what Walt will do. I'd start the season with Hannigan and Corky, let Mesoraco play everyday in AAA.

    If Mesoraco forces the issue flip-flop him and Corky.

    JMHO.
    +1

    Sign Corky. Tell him that he is on the team until Mes is ready then he'll go to AAA (assuming he can't find a full time gig).

    Between all the disagreements in the post is the fact that pretty much everyone agrees that the team should go with Hanigan/Corky/Mes in 2011. The money saved by not bringing back Ramon would be better used to improve some other position.
    .

  16. #45
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    Re: Devin Mesoraco

    I suspect that Mes will get a long look in the spring. The catching prototype is defense and power. When he's ready, Mes gives them that.


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