Upset for the MVP?

[Roush's socks]

In all sports, including baseball, the MVP voters would much rather give the award to a player who led his team to the playoffs. It isn't always 100% that way, but it is the general rule.

The idea is that you are measuring "value" to a team in the context of winning and losing. If a team comes in 3rd place, does it really matter if they would have come in 4th place without their best player? Either way it's the difference between 3rd and 4th place. However, with a playoff team you can make the argument that they would not have made the playoffs without their best player, as is the case with Votto.

IMO I agree with this tradition. Many times bad teams have one player with great statistics. But racking up great stats for a losing team that is playing non-competitive games IS NOT the same as playing great for a pennant chasing team. Look at Chris Bosh who looked great playing for losing teams, but now that he is with the Heat playing at a higher level he looks pretty mediocre.

[scott91575]

Wow, sorry I said anything. I'm just saying there could be an upset, thats all. I never said that Votto didn't deserve it, which some of you think I believe he doesn't. Sorry jwertz if my thread "ruined" the good time you have on these boards or that you would go so far as making a bet to ban each other from this board, scott.

I think if Votto wasn't on the team you guys would have still made the playoffs. The Reds did have statistically the best offense in the NL. Granted, Votto played a huge role but you had a lot of players that played fundamentally sound ball, as far as hitting goes, this year. All I know is that if Pujols wasn't on the Cards, they would have been a step above the Pirates this year if you look at the "talent" that he was surrounded with.

If Cargo wins the award, they just need to get rid of the award all together.

I am testing your conviction to your assertion that you see Pujols winning the MVP.

Man up on the bet, or admit this is pretty much a troll thread.

I know you don't mean to be a troll, but coming to a Reds board as a known Cardinals fan and stating that Pujols will win the MVP if you really don't think that way is a troll move.

So, do you really think Pujols is going to win it, or were you trying to push buttons. You pick.

edit: Your edit of your original post removed some of the troll nature where you felt there was going to be an upset. Sorry, but your original post was pretty much stating you felt not only Pujols deserved the MVP, but was going to win it. Hence my post testing your conviction.

BTW...Votto's rate numbers were better than Pujols. You could make a case Pujols should not have won the Silver Slugger more than Votto not winning the MVP.

[MikeThierry]

I am testing your conviction to your assertion that you see Pujols winning the MVP.

Man up on the bet, or admit this is pretty much a troll thread.

I know you don't mean to be a troll, but coming to a Reds board as a known Cardinals fan and stating that Pujols will win the MVP if you really don't think that way is a troll move.

So, do you really think Pujols is going to win it, or were you trying to push buttons. You pick.

edit: Your edit of your original post removed some of the troll nature where you felt there was going to be an upset. Sorry, but your original post was pretty much stating you felt not only Pujols deserved the MVP, but was going to win it. Hence my post testing your conviction.

BTW...Votto's rate numbers were better than Pujols. You could make a case Pujols should not have won the Silver Slugger more than Votto not winning the MVP.

You are telling me to re-read what you said? I don't know how you took out of my original post your assumption of what I believe. I made some tweaks from my original thought, not the extreme in which you make it out to be. Chill out man. I was surprised Pujols won the Silver Slugger award when some of Votto's numbers were better. That is why I thought there was a possibility of an upset in the MVP voting or it might be closer than what I originally thought it was going to be.

Now that I think about it, I take exception to your assertion that I "pretty much stated that I felt not only Pujols deserved the MVP but was going to win it". From the very beginning, I said Votto deserved the MVP. If you look at any numerous post on this board since I joined, I stated Votto should win the MVP. I have said during the season that Votto is the favorite to win it. The very first sentence of my original post was unchanged. It read "I have said on here many times in the past that Votto deserves the MVP this year, though I will always be a Pujols fan." I never once said Pujols will win the MVP even in the original, unedited post. I understand if you misunderstood what I originally wrote but please don't misconstrue it into something I never said.

Look, we are fans of different teams. That doesn't mean we can't be civil and have a decent conversation on here.

[MikeThierry]

Also, there is no bet if the other party doesn't agree to it. Its childish and on the level of "my dad can beat up your dad".

[scott91575]

Also, there is no bet if the other party doesn't agree to it. Its childish and on the level of "my dad can beat up your dad".

No, it's on the level you don't believe what you say.

Your analogy makes no sense, too. Seriously, you can't back your assertion. Making a bet questions your assertion. You are not strong enough to back it up.

IIRC your initial post said something like "I smell an upset" or something like that. You were clearly trying to back Pujols as an MVP, questioned my assertion that team performance matters, and now you are backtracking.

It's cool. You have pretty much stated what I felt all along. You really don't see an upset, and was starting a troll thread. No matter how many "hey man, I'm cool, you are all upset, I'm a good guy you are mean" posts you want to make won't change that.

BTW...I was never mad. Like I said, I tested your conviction on your initial thought. You have proven that is zero, and you created a troll thread.

edit: BTW, I know you didn't mean it that way (I have already stated that). My bet was to clarify that fact, but you original post and replies implied Pujols should, could, and most likely would win. I made you backtrack really quick, didn't I? Amazing how a forceful act can clarify statements.

[MikeThierry]

My god man, you are reading too much into what I am saying. Chill out.


I never asserted anything. I just asked if there could be an upset. I had no ulterior motives or anything of that nature. I brought up the topic because the Silver Slugger awards were announced and surprisingly Pujols won. I would have never brought up the topic if Votto won the award, which he probably should have.

I don't understand the hostility.

[scott91575]

My god man, you are reading too much into what I am saying. Chill out.


I never asserted anything. I just asked if there could be an upset. I had no ulterior motives or anything of that nature. I brought up the topic because the Silver Slugger awards were announced and surprisingly Pujols won. I would have never brought up the topic if Votto won the award, which he probably should have.

I don't understand the hostility.

I'm not upset, so hey, if you want to see it that way, congrats on the thoughts in your head.

You stated you thought there would be an upset, and stated reasons why. I forced your hand, and now you backtrack. It's ok, you have no conviction in your assertions. Just pointing that out.

edit: I really wish I would have quoted your original post.

[MikeThierry]

There is a difference between me saying that there would be an upset and there could be an upset or the possibility of one. I never said that there would be an upset.

Congrats for twisting someone's words around.

By the way, I never said you were angry, I said you were being hostile. Two different things. Your rhetoric is clearly hostile probably because I'm not a Reds fan.

[MikeThierry]

I wish you would have quoted the original post too because I never said there would be an upset and I said Votto deserves it.

[scott91575]

There is a difference between me saying that there would be an upset and there could be an upset or the possibility of one. I never said that there would be an upset.

Congrats for twisting someone's words around.

Well, I guess you can twist your own words when you edit your original post. your original post was pretty much stating you smelled an upset (I believe those were the words). Apparently you didn't think that through.

Alright, now the thread is more clear. You think Votto will win, but Pujols might. Thanks. Awesome thread. CarGo could win too. Yet it's pretty clear Votto is the clear favorite, and in spite of me making the most obvious reason why Votto wins, you still came back at it.

What do you want with this thread?

Here you go, Pujols could win.

end thread.

[MikeThierry]

Are you always this hostile and rude to people who are fans of other teams or are you a jerk all the time?

[scott91575]

Are you always this hostile and rude to people who are fans of other teams or are you a jerk all the time?

are you always this wishy washy and create worthless thread about things that have small possibilities that might happen yet can't take a stand on it?

Do you not think before posting? You create a thread about Pujols might win the MVP, with no assertion whatsoever, and hope to get a good response? You actually think Votto should and will win the MVP. How can you actually create an argument against. It's worthless.

At least have some conviction. At least then I would have some respect for you.

At least create a dialogue and debate you can argue. A statement "hey, he might win" is worthless. This whole thread is now "hey, he could win, who knows, I have no idea, I am clueless. Things could happen, but I don't think they will. Let's talk about random things that could happen! Yeah random thoughts!"

[MikeThierry]

are you always this wishy washy and create worthless thread about things that have small possibilities that might happen yet can't take a stand on it?

Do you not think before posting? You create a thread about Pujols might win the MVP, with no assertion whatsoever, and hope to get a good response? You actually think Votto should and will win the MVP. How can you actually create an argument against. It's worthless.

At least have some conviction. At least then I would have some respect for you.

At least create a dialogue and debate you can argue. A statement "hey, he might win" is worthless. This whole thread is now "hey, he could win, who knows, I have no idea, I am clueless. Things could happen, but I don't think they will. Let's talk about random things that could happen! Yeah random thoughts!"

Why would I be assertive and confrontational when I was asking a question to Reds fans? I wasn't even trying to start a full fledged debate about a topic. Roush's socks had a very logical answer to my question. I guess I could come in with bold threads about Pujols winning the MVP or how the Cardinals are the best team of all time but I don't go down that Jerry Springer route like you would like me to. There were several Cards "fans" who came in here earlier this year who took that tactic and they were banned.

By the way, you wouldn't have respect for me no matter what I say in here so stop fooling yourself.

[MikeThierry]

I also think Vottomattic brings up a good point about Cargo. I just don't know if it this voting is as clear cut as many people once thought it was, including myself.

[jwertz]

My bad Mike. The comment I made about Cubs and Cards fans ruining our fun is my attempt at a little humor. I honestly did not intend to insult. However, there is a bit of truth to what I did say. I can't tell you how many times I have been at a Reds event and a bastard cubs fan shows up, usually ignorant and beligerant. I don't think that Cardinals fans are nearly as bad, but it seems that most are upset that the Reds are a viable contender. I think most Cardinals fans are spoiled by the success of their team. Not you personally, I don't know you from Adam, so for me to judge you would be wrong of me. If I have upset you I apologize. I too just want to have a good time, and am sorry if I have wronged anyone. You do have to realize that you are dealing with Reds fans that while die hard, have been tested for the last twenty years. I know I built up alot of angst and frustration over those years. I was five the last time the Reds won the world series, so you can imagine watching the Cubs and Cardinals win year after year while we brought up the rear with Pittsburgh was no fun. Seeing as how this is a Reds message board for Reds fans I can understand how some, if not most would be "upset" with a Cardinals fan for even mentioning Pujols. I am open to discussion about baseball, with just about anybody. But I think both you and I can agree that no one can have an intelligent conversation with a Cubs fan. Sorry again. One thing everyone can agree on is that Pujols and Votto are damn good. Albert Pujols is the best baseball player of my generation, Griffey Jr. included. But Votto should win this award, without him, this team can forget about at least twenty wins.